Click to read a whole lot more coverage and lots of comments about the debates between Republican challenger Dick DeVos and Democratic Governor Jennifer Granholm.
The Freep reports that Michigan's Gubernatorial candidates will debate three times in October. Also check out this Detroit News article that delves into details from the 10-page debate agreement like podium heights, what has to be in the dressing rooms and backdrop colors. 10 pages??
Monday, October 2 (8-9 PM)
Monday's debate will be broadcast on WKAR-TV (MSU). The format will be "free-wheeling question and answer session". It will be available live to all Michigan public television stations, on WJBK-TV (FOX Channel 2) and available to other Fox stations.
UPDATE OCTOBER 3RD: It certainly was "free-wheeling" with (in the words of the Freep) charges and countercharges about the honesty of their TV ads, international trade, taxes, abortion, his tax returns and her ability to bring jobs to Michigan. Their "What the Voters Said" feature seems to suggest, however, that few minds were changed by the debate, something borne out in the comments below and also in this Detroit News article about the debate. Want to see what others are saying? How about a Google blog search for "Granholm Devos Debate"?
If you missed it, you can watch the first debate on the WKAR-TV web site.
Debate 2006 at the WOOD TV 8 studios
Photo by Beth and Christian
Part of a Debate 2006 Set!
Tuesday, October 10 (8-9 PM)
The second debate will be broadcast by WOOD-TV in Grand Rapids and WDIV-TV (Local 4) from WOOD-TV's studio and will be available to NBC affiliates. It is billed as a more structured and traditional debate. UPDATE: The debate will air at the original time of 8 PM! (Freep story)
UPDATE OCTOBER 11TH Those who weren't tuned into Tigers/A's Game 1 saw a more structured meeting between the two major candidates for Governor that was nonetheless hostile. Republican Dick DeVos opened with "I learned a few things in the first debate. What happened was I saw the governor of the state of Michigan look straight into the camera and lie to the people of Michigan" while the Democratic Governor countered later with "We need a governor who stands up to President Bush and not one who writes him a seven-figure campaign check". (Detroit News)
There were some items of interest including DeVos's off-the-cuff proposal to eliminate the personal property tax (which brings in $1.5 billion in revenue) and his claim of support for Michigan's abortion laws as they stand. (Detroit Free Press)
You can decide for yourself who won (if you had other things to do) and watch the archive of the Second Michigan Gubernatorial Debate at WOOD-TV. You might also want to try a search of blog articles about the 2nd Debate. Post your comments below!
Monday, October 16 (8-9 PM)
The final debate was held at at WXYZ-TV (Channel 7) in Southfield will include questions from a studio audience of undecided, independent voters in a town hall format. You can view the archived video of the 3rd Michigan Governor Debate at WXYZ-TV / Detroit Now.
350 Comments
Help---our cable just went out. can you provide a list of radio stations in The Thumb carrying the debates?
Sorry we weren't here to help, Charles! I hope you tried searching for "radio" on Absolute Michigan. One of the featured links under radio & TV is Michiguide.com, a comprehensive guide to Michigan radio stations.
I think DeVos just repeated his same rhetoric. He talks a good game about jobs and those who are out of jobs are listening. But, I implore Michiganders to really critique his campaign. He has good ads, but tonight he showed that he really doesn't understand the issues. There are other issues facing Michigan such as health care, education, and crime. These areas DeVos gave little to convince voters that he is the man to deal with these issues. I thought Granholm did a wonderful job and she has my vote. She has brought jobs to Michigan and she has made significant improvements.
does DeVos always talk like a preacher man?
My goodness. I wasn't a DeVos or Granholm fan prior to this debate, but the girl gov certainly mopped the floor with soap boy. I expected more, but was entertained nonetheless.
Wow! Didn't DeVos have the same manorisms as Bush? No plan, no answers and he even got hung up while speaking. Where was the great leader he claims to be? Shouldn't he be able to stand up to the person he says he is better than? Granholm ran all over him. At one point I actually felt sorry for him.
DeVos revealed his inner rat, beady-eyed and nervous. Granholm is a pro and has the brains and charm to pull this state out of the Engler-hole. What's with Tim Skubic heckling only the gov?
I'm a Republican, but I'm willing to admit, DeVos needs to articulate his ideas and his roadmap better; lots of talk and not much substance.
Tim Skubic was downright rude to Gov. Granholm. He consistently talked over her answers to his questions, plus he allowed DeVos to preach on and evade giving direct answers to questions. DeVos never did answer why he hasn't released his 2005 tax return. What's he hiding?
Dick Devos most certainly acted like a door salesman with his sleezy attitude and his saleman-like approach. He beat around the bush on every single question, whereas Granholm was strong and confident. Granholm has great policies to be advocated, but we need a Democratic Majority Leader to help her with the implementation.
I'm not voting for an eloquent speaker, I'm voting for someone who will bring changes to Michigan and get us in the market again. Granholm hasn't kept half of her promises and yes, she did speak well but talk is not something I am looking for, action is. DeVos may not have done well in the debate but it's the way he will change the economy in Michigan that interests me.
Exactly how would Granholm know that Michigan has the best workers in the world? We have the highest unemployment rate in the country (actually we are tied with Mississippi, whose unemployment can be largely attributed to a Hurricane!)
Can our current Govenor really campaign on a platform of her aggressive drive to bring work back to Michigan, when she has an utterly unacceptable track record of bringing business to Michigan? Only one mention has been made of the jobs she has brought to Michigan - approx. 300 jobs,because Toyota has committed to building in Michigan. Exactly how is that an accomplishment?! At that rate, she would have to remain governor for another 20 years to bring back to Michigan that which she drove away through bad policy positions like, supporting the Single Business Tax and irresponsibly supporting the City of Detroit (financially rewarding the city's gross mismanagement, inefficient fiscal policies and unfair business practices). She does not support equal state representation on the Detroit Water Board but does support Detroit's desire to charge Detroit residents less for water than their suburb neighbors.
Combine that with her complete failure on the international front illustrated by her team's fruitless trips to Europe and Asia in search of Michigan investors; not only would Honda not take her team's meeting, but it commited to invest multiple millions in our neighboring Ohio!
Please do not be swayed by the campaign promises. Granholm is pandering for votes. She has failed at implementing her campaign promises from four years ago and does not have the initiative, the necessary legislative support or the national respect to aggressively lead Michigan. She is reactive in her policies and calculating in her positions.
I shutter to think about the damage her administration will do if allowed a second term without concern for re-election.
Laura,
Most of Michigan's lost jobs are from the auto industry. How are you going to hold Granholm accountable for their lousy performance? Would more business tax cuts have changed the fact that no one wants to buy gas-guzzling SUVs and pick-up trucks these days?
Seems like DeVos has the same plan as Granholm; building up Michigan's infrastructure, investing in research and higher learning, etc. The difference is that he wants to do all this while cutting business taxes even more (even though Michigan already has the lowest business taxes in the midwest). How's he going to pay for everything he wants to do? We've seen how spending more while taxing less is working on the national level, now this country has the biggest debt ever! Do we want the same thing for Michigan?
I believe DeVos thought that his run for the governor's office would be a "walk in the park" because the encumbent is female and that She would be "easy prey";but since the first debate i think that even Mr. DeVos Himself is re-evaluating as to whether or not He is better for the job.He is sooooo unprepared and uninformed.
I'm afraid that DeVos came across as a baublehead that just kept repeating the word "leadership." He gave few specifics and seemed to try to hide behind his vapid smile and corporate image. He'll replace the SBT with a tax on business? C'mon, Dick what does that mean? Cut 2 billion in taxes and jeopardize services and programs and that's your plan?
The governor is certainly more polished in her delivery than DeVos but after watching the debate and listening to her I had to wonder "is she responsible for anything that happens in this state?" All of Michigan's economic woes were someone else's fault. The problems in the corrections department were the result of someone else's doing. The problems that resulted in the Ricky Holland death came because of something someone else did.
Granted, she is a gifted communicator, but I really want someone who will lead this state in an upward direction. Someone who will take responsibility for the problems at hand and say this is where we are, it doesn't matter what the circumstances were that got us here, we need to figure out how we move forward.
I was really hoping that the governor would do that last night. While hope may spring eternal, I'm beginning to think that she will never take ownership of the problems the state has and work to address them. Michigan needs more jobs, a more diversified economy and better leadership. Broad platitudes on the subjects will not cut it any more. I think we need results and we just are not getting them from Jennifer Granholm.
Jennifer Granholm is a fantastic speaker. If this was her first time running for the office, she would have my vote. She seems to have all the right answers and is clear and concise. Dick DeVos, on the other hand, seems like a typical "beat around the bush" kind of politition. I really have no idea what his plans are. He seems to be pulling answers out of the air. What is his plan anyway???? The big problem here is that Granholm talks a big game but has a lousy track record and DeVos stumbles too much when asked about his plans. I am one republican who is not looking forward to this election. Regardless of which one wins, I think Michigan will be the loser this time.
I was disturbed by how cavalier DeVos was when questioned about his investment in a chain of nursing homes that were accused of patient abuse and neglect. Unless he wanted to convey the message that he cares more about lining his own pockets than he does about the abuse of elderly citizens, then "turned out to be a bad investment as well" was probably not the best response.
I might not like everything that Governor Jennifer has done, but I strongly feel that she is exactly what the State of Michigan needs. Mr DeVos it is always easier to be on the outside looking in, Engler left this state in such a mess, and it will take time to correct. I still have no idea what Mr DeVos plans are, and so far he has not shown me with negative ads that he is capable of leading our state. Go Jennifer !!
What’s with Tim Skubic heckling only the gov? my question too.
Granholm clearly came out a winner last night. I was pretty shocked at DeVos's inability to go on the offensive. His so called plans are all talk. He has no idea how to replace the SBT revenue. To steel a quote from the republican playbook, I guess he plans to "cut and run". Maybe he plans to fund the loss revenue himself!
How can his business success, for which he admits to having cut 1400 jobs in Michigan, translate into governing success? They are very different ballgames.
I was looking forward to an interesting and lively debate last night and was disappointed. I was extremely disappointed in both sides. Many people may feel that Devos lost the debate because Granholm was more articulate, but I feel they both lost.
Dick couldn't make a coherent statement thoughout and certainly didn't give us anything idea as to how he would help Michigan. Jennifer was simply vile. She took cheap shots and refused to take any responsiblity for the condition of this State. When she made the comment about nursing homes I was disgusted. Was she accusing Devos of molesting and abusing the elderly? If so, this race has left all
civility behind. I for one am voting Libertarian this time. Michigan will remain in trouble for the next for years no matter which of these two wins.
Dicky D just wants to be on top of the ultimate currupt Pyrimid scheme..state government.
William, I didn't see Governor Granholm as accusing or implying DeVos of being directly responsible for what happened in those nurisng homes. I don't think anybody believes there is a direct connection there.
However, this is all part of a larger issue . . . that DeVos misrepresents and hides his investments and connections. According to this Freep article, the DeVos family did have the power to exert more control over the company, Alterra, that owned the nursing homes. It play into a trust issue.
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.....0661003013
DeVos was shaky at best last night and can't provide the vision or solid ideas that would make you want to vote for him. It's all hollow sound bites with him.
DeVos keeps talking about leadership & experience when the fact is he was born on third base and thinks he hit a tripple. Does anyone realy think this guy could work his way to the top?? He could hardly talk with out using some canned line from the stump. It was clear he has no plan for anything just complaints.
Jennifer Granholm did a good job in the first debate. The collapse of the American Automobile industry can only be blamed on the big three. Thier only concern is corporate profit not jobs for the people of Michigan. Maybe if they produced a resonably priced, dependable car that got good gas milage they could compete with Japan. Almost everything in our stores is made in Asia. I have two American cars out of loyalty. Have you tried to find clothing made in America? We need to support ourselves and buy American. Dick Devos is Big Business, he has never wanted for anything in his life. I'm voting for Jennifer Granholm
if you're looking for info, check this pdf/website out ... (summary on page 67 and 68)
http://www.devosforgovernor.co.....ndPlan.pdf
no other comment ...
PjAndy,
I completely concur with the sentiment behind your question, "Would more business tax cuts have changed the fact that no one wants to buy gas-guzzling SUVs and pick-up trucks these days?"
More big business tax cuts would have absolutely no affect on the consumer's choice of transportation.
The reason for that is, quite simply, supply and demand. The Big Three supplies the automobiles the customer wants to purchase. Michigan's economic woes have nothing to do with "the fact that no one wants to buy gas-guzzling SUVs and pick-up trucks these days" – because people DO want to drive gas-guzzling SUVs and pick-up trucks.
Ultimately, though, this is no relevance whatsoever in the race for Governor or either candidates abilities.
We can only know, for certain, that which has occurred. We only know what Granholm has accomplished thus far, and how many of her campaign promises came to fruition. Based upon that, can we believe she possesses the necessary ability and influence to accomplish her promises during this election campaign?
I suppose we could, if we are also willing to accept her contention that the challenges faced by Granholm's administration really are not her responsibility because someone else is to blame for them, (Governor Engler, President Bush, L. Brooks Patterson, etc.)
Or, perhaps it is the fault of those "gas-guzzling SUVs and pick-up truck" drivers. The very same drivers that spend their money purchasing cars and trucks produced by the Big Three, pay the most in gas taxes, purchase American made products and support Michigan workers.
Last Sunday's episode of Extreme Home Makeover did more in the way of showing the depth of character and strong work ethic of Michigan's citizens and workers than Granholm has done in her entire political career.
Why does Granholm blame Engler?
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.....40572/1122
"The DeVos campaign's catchy claim that Michigan has lost one job for every 20 minutes under Granholm is quasi-misleading on a couple of counts:
* It cherry-picks survey data for the numbers most damaging to Granholm.
* And it conveniently fails to mention that the vast majority of Michigan's job losses since the employment peak of mid-2000 occurred not while Granholm was governor but during the final 2 1/2 years of Republican John Engler's administration."
Grow up, people. It's a big world out there and 3 years is not enough time to turn around an economy more dependent on auto manufacturing than any other. Rather than stupid "tax breaks" that stick $100 in most of our pockets (and cause deficits to soar), the Governor has developed a comprehensive, long term plan that allocates money to:
* Improving our educational system
* Attracting new businesses like Google to Michigan
* Encouraging businesses to expand in Michigan
I've read Dick DeVos's Turnaround Plan, Mark, and it has a lot of good ideas in it. The only problem is, the man who is selling us those good ideas made his personal fortune in a company that is one of the most hated in human history because it tricks people out of their money. He has also worked tirelessly to protect outsourcing and set up international trade structures that benefit multinational corporations and send American jobs to China and elsewhere.
My vote is a statement that I trust the candidate to work on behalf of me and on behalf of Michigan. Dick DeVos has demonstrated time and time again that he is focused on working for Dick DeVos.
Since we're sharing links, how about this one:
http://www.granholmforgov.com/
Laura:
I don't know if the fact that FOX news agrees with me is a good thing or a bad thing, but this article shows that auto sales are way down among the big 3:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,201955,00.html
If the auto industry was doing well, the lay-offs which have hit Michigan the hardest probably wouldn't have happened. The relevance of this is that most of MI's lost jobs are a result of the poor performance of the auto industry, which is something the governor has little control over, and which more business tax cuts wouldn't have changed.
I have read the previous comments. Two things are obvious. The media frames the election and Michigan citizens need to learn how to spell. Facts are obviously unimportant in all and any discussion. The governor was rude and manipulative throughtout the debate as she interrupted continously and dramatized untruths to mask real issues....We will all be the losers if she is elected again.
dear editor,
i wish to pose a question to not only the current and possible governor, but to all politicians in power. In Michigan, we have a saying, "there are only two seasons in Michigan, winter and construction." Each year commuters have to endure progressively worse traffic congestion, wasting untold gallons of gas simply idling. Add the man hours spent waiting in traffic, and we get a truly awesome amount of waste. I won't even go into the environmental, moral, and safety issues of traffic. Los Angles can serve as an example of what can happen when traffic get out of hand. My question is this: what are you going to do in the long term to solve this problem?
I was appalled at DeVos' presentation. I felt as if Bush had donned a DeVos mask. Inarticulate, no grasp of specific facts, but he memorized the talking points, "leadership, jobs, businessman". But he claims he will surround himself with those who are experts and who can guide him. Sound familiar (Cheney, Rumsfeld)?
I believe I will move from Michigan if I have to have an average president and an average governor.
I did not think Granholm's point regarding Alterra was well made, however, just that fact that DeVos has millions to invest in one company (not to mention all his other investments) tells me he has no idea what I or any other middle class citizen is facing. When he talks about cutting fat from State government, he's talking about the unemployment or medicaid many people survive on between their jobs. Mr. DeVos will take this country far to the right and I do not believe that would be beneficial to any of the jobless or struggling employed.
I am an Independent, I will vote for who I believe is the best candidate. I was totally turned off by Jennifer Grahholm in the debates. She does not take responsibility for anything, it is everybody else's fault. I was anything but impressed with the job DeVos did as well, he left a lot to be desired, that is for sure!
Some forward planning by all Michigan politicians regardless of party affiliation years ago could have avoided a lot of this now. You have no mass transit to speak of (I am from a great mass transit state and coming here and seeing the way things are was quite a shock after what I was used to). It should have been obvious not to put all your eggs in one (auto industry) basket. I could go on but the point is, you are where you are, now what are you going to do?
I campaigned for Kerry because I really do not like the Bush administration, but there is no way on earth I am going to vote for Granholm. I spent some time working in Detroit and saw just how it is there. I can't believe you guys re-elected Kwame, I was just dumbfounded about that one, one question...why? I am not even going to go into how corrupt the City government is, they would probably try to sue me. And again, the blame everybody else tactic was rife there and I really don't want to hear that.
Anyway, I am here because of my husband's job and hoping the economic climate in this state will improve so I might actually start liking it here instead of wishing my husband's employer would move to another state so I can get out of here.
At this point since I consider voting Libertarian a waste of my vote, I will hold my nose and vote for DeVos, but I won't be happy about it! This state had a 6.7 unemployment rate when I moved out here in 1997, in the middle of a boom time, so you could not blame the economy then. Right now the national UI is 4.6% yet we are tied for last at 7.1% with MS which is like that because of Hurricane Katrina. I might laugh and say what a joke this state is, except if you live here it is not very funny. If I get the chance to leave, I will do it in a heartbeat.
I hope this doesn't come off as mean or nasty, I am just posting an honest opinion.
I was looking for a change in this state and was leaning towards Devos but after the debate I was completely back to supporting the Governor Granholm. Everything is focused on jobs... and yes she has not been that successful but there is more too it. Our economy on the east side of the state is greatly dependent on the Automotive Industry and the Unions which the Governor has limited control on an international company. If Michigan employees are highly skilled workers, why is the quality poor? Could it be higher wages cut into the product quality? The Germans have skilled labors but their cars are much more expensive! Can you build a cheap quality car with expensive labor and product? I believe a lot of turning around Michigan’s economy falls on those responsible in the auto industry, which are the Union leaders and Automotive Executives.
Anyway, I was looking for straight answers especially when Devos was asked about Proposal A and property tax.. Which his politician answer of I can't focus on that when people don't have jobs answer is just a garbage.
So.. it’s like the presidential debate, pick the lesser evil..
This is a no brainer for me, We where promised the world when Granholm ran for office four years ago, she was going to turn Michigan around and bring our economy back to life. Bottom line is She hasnt! Besides the automotive industry I see Factories closing all over the state and all Granholm does is blame others, She was left a poor economy ( should have beeen upfront about that during her last campaign), Going to fix our healhcare system, So far no improvement (we are still paying the tab for the uninsured and those who abuse the system). We need a change, I dont care if Devos is as articulate as Granholmas long as he can get the job done and if he doesnt well fire him in four years. Look we are at the botom of the barrel while the rest of the country is humming along, we are loosing jobs and students to other states that have their act together. Lets throw the bum out and give Devos a chance!!! Hes got my vote, I already know what Granholm is capable of, Blameing everyone else!
Please!!! You can't honestly be thinking of having debate at same time as Tiger game. Please reconsider. For All Tiger Fans!!!!!
Well, if it was up to me, it would be at a time when everyone could watch it with no conflicts, but at least it will be early in the game (game broadcast starts at 8:05)! I am hearing rumblings that they may change the debate time to 7 PM! That would be great - stay tuned! Nope! They couldn't work it out apparently. Free Press story.
WOOD-TV site says: The debate will also be available as a live video stream on WOODTV.com. After the debate, it will be available as on-demand video and a podcast from WOODTV.com. We'll have links to it when they put it up!
Wonder where the pictures are on Granholm's site she said she had while in Tokyo? Could not find them.
Dick needs to be a bit more prepared with more than just his commercial script and sound bites. Jen seems a bit to eager to go for the jugular though too. Why doesn't anyone point out what got us in this mess anyway? It can't be ALL Jen's fault. Both need to address the issues and not be so ready to attack. Give the job to Lee Iacooca and if there is not a 5% increase move him on.
Bill, found these photos of the Governor in Tokyo at a search for "granholm tokyo pictures".
Sometimes I wonder if anyone remembers any of the Amway scandals. Has anyone heard of Quixtar? It's funny how Alticor denies the fact that Quixtar has anything to do with them, yet if you work for Quixtar your check if from Alticor.
I also remember the members of my family going to war with Amway, after back in 1997 they tried firing all of their up-coming retires. Apparently, that is just what we need to head up the Michigan government; someone to fire those who are about to retire and someone to pull the wool over someones eyes. And lets not forget the fact that this man obviously knows what it's like work at General Motors or any other factory assembly line, or to worry about loosing a pension... I mean he is one of Forbes Worlds Richest Men.
One of Forbes Richest Men?? Must know how to handle money and run a Corporation? its time to let a buisness minded person take the reigns and turn this crappy economy around. Enough with the politicians and their double talk and constant finger pointing, " I inherited this mess" , "Its the last governors fault", enough already. I am voting for a change and if Granholm wins again, its time to relocate to Texas! GO TIGERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Joshua, Dick DeVos draws his wealth from his father, Rich DeVos, co-founder of Amway. If by running a corporation you mean presiding over his father's "business", a business built on unrealistic promises and funded by those who believed the promise, then yes, Dick DeVos has business experience.
I encourage you to read or watch the NBC Dateline special "In pursuit of the almighty dollar" before holding up Mr. DeVos's corporate experience as anything other than the reddest of red flags:
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4375477/
http://cpserverp4.com/bo/dateline_quixtar.wmv
I look forward to your response and hope that we can discuss this matter further. -Dave from Grand Rapids
I'm sure we've all seen the TV commercials. Granholm didn't do this, DeVos did that, etc. I want to hear what their plans are for Michigan. I'm sick of them bashing each other, lets get to the point. Commercials need to tell us what each candidate WILL do to help Michigan's struggling economy.
I'm from texas, but i'm attending MSU. One thing is clear to me. The difference between a dying economy and a thriving economny is diversification. When enron happened in houston, the city and state barely suffered a hiccup economically. Growth didn't stop...and the state is still a boom for jobs. Houston's economy was deversified into petrochemicals, oil, finance, and energy. Detroit is so heavily dependent upon the auto industry that its amazing that people didn't see this coming. DeVos's focus on cutting taxes won't help detroit. This is the same strategy that the big three are using right now. Cut costs, but fundementally change nothing. Our economy needs diversification. The governor has proposed rapidly expaning michigan's biotech economy. I think this is an excellent idea. It will attract high tech, high paying jobs to a state that is too dependent on manufacturing. This push for a more biotech focused economy just might bring back the big three (ethonal) and give a new life to the agricultural sector at the same time. We need solutions, not just patches.
It was like watching the Bush and Kerry OR Bush and Gore debates all over again "YIKES" I have tremendous respect for our Governor and understand the economy is hurting however, she is not a magician!! I have full trust in her to bring us back and REALLY, REALLY HOPE, PRAY, CROSS MY FINGERS that she has that opportunity. She's got my vote.
DeVos is just another mouthpiece. No answers, just BS. Talk
about a cult leader...not the kind of leadership we need.
We don't need to turn MI into another Amway cult. Let Jennifer
finish the job..she's on the right track. Remember it's taken
her 4 years to clean up Elglers crap. At least she can speak
with athority and from her heart. DeVos is as big of jerk as
bush..keep going that direction and there will be the Rich
Boys and the poor folks.
Dave, I encourage you to go back to the last election and the promises that Granholm made at that, they have turned out to be empty promises! What part of dead last in the nation dont you liberals get? The Govenor should take responsibility for what has happened on her watch and not just blame everyone else! And if that isnt a bunch of BS I dont know what is Arlene? Its the presidents fault, its Englers fault, its the Automakers fault, its the republicans fault. One thing my parent taught me is to take responsability for my actions. She is a great talker but talk is cheap, Devos made a great point, if she was CEO of a company she would have been fired a long time ago. Michigan isnt a company and too many peoples lives are affected by the choices and decisions that our politicians make. She has had her chance, its time to move on!I am voting for Devos and I will encourage everyone to do the same.
Joshua, I encourage you to go back to the last election as well. Start with this article from mLive:
http://www.mlive.com/printer/p.....amp;coll=1
Michigan's job losses didn't begin when Granholm took office. The state's employment slide began after the job market peaked in the summer of 2000. Granholm responds to the 100,000 job loss charge by noting that DeVos and the GOP are "quiet about the 240,000 jobs that left when (Republican) John Engler was governor."
The implosion of the auto industry is THE cause of Michigan's troubles. The factors that caused it are far beyond the ability of ANY Governor to fix overnight and were already there when she took office and had been building for over 50 years. To expect anyone, regardless of what side of the political fence they are on to fix this overnight is unrealistic in the extreme.
I hope you can acknowledge this. -Dave from Grand Rapids
PS: You're right about the diversification, Dave from Texas. I think we're on the right track.
Devos lost my vote. My wife felt the same way. I went into last night's debate clearly leaning to Devos. His not so subtile anger and vague on the specifics answers made me wonder how he got the nomination. After many years of working with low level labor talks, I know that most committeemen could get Devos angry and start him babbeling. He did not show me any of the qualities I think necessary to lead this state into a new economy.
The solution to Michigan's economic woes will take a generation at least. I'm afraid I will have to agree with Jennifer and 'stay the course' not go with Dick and 'wander around the course'.
First of all we are not voting for parties we are voting for people, either Dick Devos or Jennifer Granholm. Secondly Jennifer promised to turn our economy around and she hasnt (four years is a little longer than over night). Its not just the auto industry that is leaving Michigan, I work in Health care and I see hospitals and Doctors leaving because of our economy, our health system is taking care of uninsured citizens as well as the massive influx of illegal aliens. And there are numerous other buisnesses that have nothing to do with the auto industry that are leaving. A governor can help with tax incentives, and legislation to encourage new companies to come to Michigan as well as the companies that are still here (she didnt even mention those companies that have stuck with Michigan). I think that the Gubenatorial debate is a litle late to be discussing a 21st century jobs fund, she should have had this on the ground and running in her first hundred days as Governor. And if you are going to tell me that she was ignorant of what she was getting into when she took the job than I will tell you she shouldnt have applied for the job. She is full of great talk and no action, and I am tired of watching friends and family struggle to make ends meet and leave this great state. Right now a ham sandwich looks better than four more years of Jennifer Granholm!
Fred, Let me give you a little insight on Devos and his anger twords the blatent lies that the Granholm campaign has advertised against him. How is a share holder of a major Company responsible for what employees do to patients under their care? All of a sudden she makes you think he is abusing patients himself, thats a load of crap and I would be mad myself and want to set the record strait. When the questioner asked Granholm about the mudslinging in this campaign she completly dodged the question and began to rant about her plan for jobs. This Govenor is running a campaign to smear a man whos only crime is taking care of the company he was CEO of. Let me ask you this, how do you attract new buisnesses to Michigan when you have a history of attacking the buisnesses that are already in the state? Blamming Amway for conducting buisness and taking care of its interests is not a platform to be reelected. Again, She is all talk and no action, If you cant see that now you probably never will.
Joshua, the 21st century jobs fund is off the ground. Has been for a while now. In terms of Alterra, the central point of the Governor was that 1) DeVos had invested but not disclosed (true) and 2) that his representatives had control (also true).
Read (from November, 2001)
http://www2.jsonline.com/bym/n.....110201.asp
"We will continue our search for a permanent CEO for Alterra but do not expect to conclude our search until our restructuring is substantially completed," Jerry L. Tubergen, Alterra board chairman, said in a statement.
Tubergen is executive director of the RDV Corp., the investment vehicle of the DeVos Family, which owns 20% of Alterra.
To clarify, Tubergen, was Alterra board chairman AND also chairman of DeVos's investment corporation. Sometimes 1+1 does equal 2 no matter what some may wish it to equal.
Regarding your defense of Amway, I can only conclude that you did not watch the piece from NBC Dateline. You really should. In my opinion (one I share with many) Amway is not a company to be proud of.
Right now a job in Michigan is a job, I am not proud of alot of buisnesses in Michigan but if people are working and not depending on hand outs from the government than that is good for Michigan. In the words of a General in New Orleans after Katrina " your stuck on stupid", Granholm is not getting the job done, you can divert attention to Devos all you want but the bottom line is Michigan has the worst economy in the United States and you refuse to place blame where it belongs. She has had 4 years to change the environment for buisness in Michigan and has failed! You can continue the blame game but the facts are the facts and continuing to do things the same way and expecting different results is insanity. No one is perfect and you can pick apart anyone who applies for the job and find dirt, but I think Devos will work for Mihigan and bring the jobs here. Granholm could have and should have gone to Japan 10 times if thats what it took to bring those jobs here. Enough excuses, its time to fire Ganholm and Hire Devos!
Wow,
How could anyone even consider voting for Granholm. Do people live in Michigan?? Our economy is so bad, I am thinking of moving to another state within the next year. Not to mention she has done everything possible during her term to take away financial aid for students at private colleges. Sorry, but I don't think that I or anyone else in Michigan can afford to have her as governor for another term. Wake up and smell the downfall of michigan people. Either that or plan on moving away very soon because there are no jobs, which means we arent going to be able to stay near family any longer. When there is a choice between granholm and devos, it is not a hard decision. We need a fresh start, which we obviously cannot get from a lying pansy canadian who has basically destroyed michigan. Vote Devos, or dont vote at all!!
Shoegirl, Well said, Michigan cannot handle four more years of empty promises, If Granholm is reelected I am moving and I promise I wont be the only one. When the rest of the states are looking at booming economies and fair taxes why would you want to stay here? I love this state, I am a soldier and a hunter, I spend my free time enjoying our beautiful state and would hate to leave but I will have no other choice if Granholm wins reelection.
Shoegirl, I also agree completely! If Granholm wins, I'm out of here! I think it is really sad that this has to happen because I would love to be able to stay in michigan close to my family. It just won't be possible with Granholm as governor. Vote Devos so we at least have a chance of staying close to our families!
DONT THINK SO JOSHUA!!!!!!!
Joshua, Shoegirl and any other anti-Granholm person who comes along, May I suggest a little "Colbert Report or Jon Stewart". Laugh a little. That's what us "Liberals" do to keep sane (speaking for myself and well, almost everyone I know) in these LOVELY times. Yes, that's right, "I AM A DEMOCRAT" and have never been so proud to shout it out!! I do, however, have Republican friends(A few),Dumb as rocks but I gotta lov'em. Please tell me where exactly this country is actually "BOOMING". I realize that Walmarts are being placed on every corner but I'm not so sure that falls into the "BOOMING CATEGORY". I will also say, because I can, because that's what this website is for, that I dont think Granholm is going anywhere. To think that she will lose to Devos is seriously laughable. I am also sorry to hear that some of you will be leaving our Great State of Michigan -----YOU WILL BE MISSED!!!!
Wow Crystal, Thanks for the compliment!! Being the Republican that I am, all we have to do is have people like you speak for the democratic party & our job is done.
Granholm has MANY, MANY plans now that it is election time. What happened to the plans she had when she was voted in? The quality of life in Michigan has declined since she has become Govenor, not improved. She made promises she did not keep!! Why would any one with half a brain be gullible enough to believe her again??? I realize all can't be done in 4 years, but some improvements could have been made and haven't.
DeVos is not a slick speaker like Granholm, but my vote doesn't go to whoever speaks eloquently! Look at her ads, she is SHYSTER!!!! Misleading & out to smear, not to tell of all her accomplishments as Govenor!!
Well spoken Judy
Judy, I am sorry if I offended you or anyone else for that matter. As I said "I speak for myself". You are absolutely right. I would not be the prize speaker for the Democratic party. I dont have to tell anyone how ugly people get regarding politics. It's almost like a control issue and well face it if we had any control then Gore would be president today;)(just had to toss that in there). Democrats or Republicans, we see and hear what we want to see and hear, come election time especially, and I can not, for the life of me, see things the way you do and probably never will. Yes, I've seen the ads, not seeing the SHYSTER. I dont consider stating facts as smearing your opponent. This is what they do every election and it goes both ways. Yes, Michigan took a huge hit with the auto industry but you could not convince me that another Govenor would be handling it any better. You were right on the money though when you said it can't all be done in 4 yrs. She will never be able to please all of us all of the time but I think she is our best bet and I think the majority will agree.
Granhom's plans were put on hold when she go got into office and realized how much of Engler's dirty work she had to mop up before her plans could be put into action. How can you consider voting for a Man who out sourced his business, the very reason for our outrageous unemployment rate, to another country? If he were so devout to Michigan and really had Michigan economic future in his plans, I would have thought that he would have done his part and employed fellow Michigan residents and created jobs instead of taking them away. I have absolutley no use for Republicans, especially at this time. Jennifer Granholm, yes, has had a difficult time of it this term, however, I am confident that given a second term will be more than enough time for her to finish cleaning up after Englers and get on with her plans.
Also, another negative for DeVos I am have is hearing the rumor of his plans for all State Employees. Cutting back all state employees to 34 hours a week! That it taking away more jobs!!! This is an outrage... That is ranked up there with Engler cutting funding to all the Mental Health facilities and kicking mentally ill residents out on the streets to fend for themselves (which is something DeVos should know all too well about, since Grand Rapids high an extremely high volume of its homeless population who have serious mental problems and are unable to get jobs or care for themselves).
I have always been a moderate. and tried to look at both sides equally. but i am so distrusting in the Republican party right now, no thanks to the Presidential term, that i will not vote for DeVos. I truly do not feel that he has Michigan's best interest at heart. Its just a prestigeous title to add to his family's history.
Crystal, I think you should run for the leader of the Democratic party, you sound alot like Howard Dean, so continue with your mudslinging, you are making Jennifer proud. You cant argue the facts, things are no better now than when she took office, you are great at excuses though; it was Englers fault, its Bush's fault, its Amways fault. And Lacy, if you expect me to believe that Granholm didnt know what she was getting into four years ago when she ran for governor and mad all those wonderful promises, than she had no buisness running for the Job, and if she did than she is a Liar. Its time to quit making excuses and start acting like adults, take blame when you made promises and you didnt deliver.
Steve, is that the best you can come up with? Must have took you a few hours to think that up! " I dont think so Joshua" what is that supposed to mean? Get a clue Steve!!!!!!
DeVos is a complete idiot! I believe a third grade kid would have done a million times better than him.
Joshua, you're a spitfire I'll give you that, but the Howard Dean thing, "I LOVE THAT GUY" Just watching him put a smile on my face. I'm kind of leaning toward Barack Obama now though I do believe he will be president in the near future. As for Michigan, Just wait and see, your gonna be blown away!;) By the way, you forgot that it's also GM's fault and Ford's fault and Chrysler's fault and Delphi's fault and so on and so forth. I actually didn't blame anyone INCLUDING Granholm. Why is it that when Granholm is trying to explain a situation at hand such as Michigan's economy, she is immediately accused of making excuses and blaming others. All I heard her say is What is going on, Why it's going on and How she will continue to work toward fixing it when she is once again our Govenor (voted in by the majority) Sorry guy, I just don't see it happening for your man.
Crystal, dont count your chickens just yet, this race is just warming up. I think there are enough people tired of loosing jobs and your in for a suprise. I never said you made excuses, its your buddy Granholm or did you miss the debates? Its great to talk a big game but just ask the Yankees, talk is cheap.
Marina, I think a third grader could have come up with a better insult than that, Another liberal poster child, if we get enough of you and your mudslinging I think we may have a campaign ad!
In 1996 I started an online bulletin board called the Leelanau Forum. For about 8 years it was a great resource for the community to come together and discuss problems in a civil and productive manner.
I'm not sure if we actually solved that many problems, but it was helpful to be able to talk about things with people who might not necessarily agree with each other all the time. The key to it all was civility, something that too often seems to be lacking on or offline these days.
In the end, I had to pull the plug on the forum. My fondest hope is that Absolute Michigan could become a place where people can discuss the very weighty issues that face us: jobs, war, taking care of our elders and many more.
Not sure where I was going with this. Maybe it will be clear to someone else.
In any case, it's great to see people caring about the future and our upcoming election!
I am certanly enjoying this forum, I think it has been a great place to bloviate!
Joshua, If he talks like an idiot, looks like an idiot and walks like someone Foley got a hold of. Welll...Then.....?(I could NOT resist that, it was actually even less tasteful a couple weeks ago.) I'm voting for the girl.
Clinton for President "2008"!!!
Thats just what we need, another Monika incident in the oval office!Do you think if she wins she will return all the stuff her and her hillbilly husband stole when they left last time? But honestly, she doesnt stand a chance in 08, half of your part hates her, add that up and she has 3/4 of the country against her. You will have better luck with your global warming freak Al Gore. Just because Michigan tends to vote Democrat doesnt mean the rest of the country does! We have had control of congress since 1994 and the white house for 18 of the last 26 years. It doesnt take a college degree to figur that one out.
Crystal, you are my new poster child for the Demoratic party, check it out here: http://www.jokeawhenever.com/a.....craticseal
I think you will love this! Do me a favor listen to a little Rush Limbaugh or Sean Hannity, I think there is still hope for you! Have a great day, see you at the Polls
As a college student, I was desperate for money so I considered working for Amway. I was quickly turned off. It was way too cult-like. They are all mindless clones. Governor Granholm can't be expected to turn the economy around in only 3 years after the huge deficit Engler left. Governor Granholm has an excellent plan for turning the state's economy around--check out her website. DeVos is just another corporate talking head.
I'm new to the state. I took an engineering (non-automotive) job about a year and a half ago. Yes, Michigan looks to be doing badly, and I'd consider voting for DeVos if he gave me a compelling reason to do so, other than because I shouldn't like Granholm.
He hasn't layed out a plan. The most I've heard is "read my 65 page thing on the web". As previously stated I HAVE A JOB I'm not going to read 65 page policy statements. Distill it down to say 4-6 bullet points and give it to us in the debate or an ad.
I'm optimistic about Michigan's economy. It looks like it's finally starting to get away from it's slavish dependency on the automotive industry. Google's coming. My company is expanding. Things are starting to, as Mr. Bush would say "turn the corner". Right now I'm leaning toward Granholm, but DeVos could win me over if he'd just give me a plan I could evaluate and decide if it's better or worse than Granholm's. He won't even give a plan for how he's going to replace the money from the Single Business Tax.
DeVos is a horrible public speaker. Yes, he may be a good business person, but doens't understand all the other issues - yes, jobs is big, but there are so many other issues in Michigan.
Granholm is a dynamic speaker who has had experience in the other issue. She is (and has tried) trying to boost the auto industry, be it homegrown or foriegn (lets face it everything is global now).
Granholm won the debate easily. I'm not sure what people see in DeVos.
Tim, Devos is not Granholm, thats what I see in him. She is full of promises and no action, she had me convinced last election that she was going to turn things around, four years later she has finally come up with a plan, give me a break. If you like the way things are in Michigan that keep voting for Granholm but if you want a change and think we can do better than last in the Country in unemployment than vote for Devos. This is not a complicated decision. I am soo sick of all the Excuses for Granholm, you cant turn things around in three years, well she has made things worse. Its time for a change and if in four years Devos hasnt turned things around than throw him out! I am certan he cant do any worse than Granholm.
Seth, it is completly up to you if you want to be an informed voter or not, you can listen to the mudslinging and watch a few debates but the fact is running a State cant be summed up in a few lines and debates dont give the time or the oppertunity to really lay out a plan. Its up to you, read his plan and see, you might be suprised. Unfortunatly we have become a fast food society, we want it our way now! Well to be an informed voter you need to take the time and do a little research. I also urge you to look up the propositions that are on the ballot this year, there are a few very important decisions we need to make that will affect alot of people. You can find them at Michigan.gov
Interesting to hear your take Seth. I agree with you that the MI economy does seem to be pciking up and diversifying at the same time. It would make sense to me that if MI has "turned the corner" that Governor Granholm should be reelected and able to continue with her jobs plan.
You would think after spending eight years as the head of Alticor that Dick DeVos could present clear and concise bullet points. However, he truly is a horrible speaker/debater and he can't cut through the fat to the core issues and describe his 65-page plan. He is so unclear that he even had problems following the 2nd debate regarding his position on abortion. As this article mentions, DeVos is strongly in favor of overturning Roe.
http://www.mlive.com/newsflash.....thispage=1
Joshua, you bemoan the fact that we have become a fast food society and rightly suggest an informed voter needs to do research.
I have read the campaign statements and I wonder if you could direct me to where Dick DeVos has detailed his plans to replace the 1.9 billion dollar Single Business Tax and the over 1.5 billion dollar personal property tax cut?
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.....6610110430
With this and with his "flip-flopping" on issues like abortion (actively opposed for years, supporting Michigan's laws on Monday, opposed again yesterday) and public education (opposed to the tune of $5 million, now a staunch supporter), it appears to me that candidate DeVos is quite handy with a campaign promise but has no plan explaining how he will honor those promises.
My mother taught me that a promise you have no intention of keeping should be called what it is: a lie.
I feel sorry for you people if Dick Devos gets elected. The team he is President of the Orlando Magic was caught paying $200,000 in hush money to one of his critics.
http://www.orlandosentinel.com.....-headlines
If you can't win on the merits, pay a bribe to keep the other side quiet. He talks about cutting the budget in Michigan but has no trouble taking almost a half a billion dollars for a new Arena from the little people to generate a bigger profit for his basketball team in Orlando. It is sad when you have to sit through a public hearing with a family worth BILLIONS crying poverty.
Dave, you are supporting a proven liar in Jennifer Granholm, so stop while you are ahead. Cutting taxes increases revenue, just look at the national economy! Why dont we cut some of these politicians salaries and expense accounts, that might make up the difference. Dont be mad that your candidate is going to loose this election.
Brad, Roe is bad law, read the first paragraph of the constitution and it should be clear. but no Governor is going to overturn Roe and to debate it is sensless, that is something that will be left to the Supreme Court not a State Governor. And as for Bill, if you dont feel sorry for the people of Michigan already with the state of our economy than you dont have a heart. Granholm has made things worse! You dont have to be an eloquent speaker to run a buisness or do a good job. I am sick of two faced liberals who Discriminate when it suits them! Have a great day!
Joshua are you aware you're almost 1/4 the posts on this item?
Sure makin promises that they may not be able to keep i misleading but being decietful is a god-given right to any politician? i mean look at George Bush, now if you want a poster child for blantant-disregard and obvious untruthfulness then there you have one. But isnt those promises what get them elected or are you so blind to only vote because there is an R or a D next to their name with out even knowing they are about... All i am saying is that this state will not benefit from DeVos as governor. And I am quite sure that Granholm knew exactly what she is getting into, but how would it sound if her campaign was 'I can fix the state of our economy, its just going to take 4 years'? no one with an ounce of want for the job would campaign that way. does it make it right? no. does every politician campaign with making huge promises that they may no be able to keep, if at all? yes.
You really need a life! Hope you find a new one in Texas after the election in November.
I think Granholm has done nothing for the Michigan economy. Nor can I say that Granholm has lost jobs for Michigan the Unions and and Car companies have lost jobs for Michigan but she didn't do anything about the jobs lost. And that is why she dosen't have my vote even though I stand a strong democrat.
Thanks Kay, it will be great as long as you are not there, and Steve glad to know you are reading, you might learn something, its fun telling you liberals how wrong you are!
The latest Granholm commercial has me beyond teed off!!
She is talking like she gives a hoot for our kids & our schools. Since my daughter has started school 4 years ago, yes all 4 years Jennifer has been in office, our schools have gone progressively downhill.
In the debate last week her 1st mention of this is that she applied for an extra $4,000 for our kids, by the end of the debate they were getting it. How's that?
She hasn't cared for 4 long years, now she's hot on it! If you believe this is genuine, then you are beyond ignorant.
Promises, promises.....& more promises. I'm still waiting for the fruit of the 1st 4 years.
Joshua, I love reading your responses!!! It is amazing how the gullible will fall for it again....How long does it take to learn this lesson Michigan???
Thanks Judy, I am sure that there are enough of us out here that are sick of the lies and empty promises that we are going to give Michigan a chance this time. Jennifer Granholms days in office are numbered and that means a better life for all of us, even those libs who just cant get a clue!
Joshua, you seem to have the idea that this is some kind of game. The Republican Party you are giving your blind support to is mortgaging our futures with dead-end wars and massive debts.
Did you happen to catch former GOP Majority Leader Dick Armey this morning on NPR suggesting that the GOP has lost sight of its principles in the quest to maintain its majority? In my opinion, nominating a man whose "business" was Amway fits that profile.
By the way, Joshua, I haven't heard what you thought of the Dateline profile of Amway. Are you just going to ignore that because it doesn't fit your image of Republicanism? Here are the links again:
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4375477/
http://cpserverp4.com/bo/dateline_quixtar.wmv
Wow, a game Dave....Our future & wanting the best for our state & not getting it with Jennifer Granholm's PROMISES is the only game be played that I see!
If more of the same is what you want then by all means cast your vote for her. Just remember, when you think it can't get any worse, it can and has with our present Govenor.
Dave, besides facism, communism, slavery, and now Terrorism war has never solved anything. No one is playing games here Dave, this is a serious as it gets! You can post your little drive by media stories and think what you want. The fact still remains your candidate is a bold faced liar and a damn good one. She talks a great game but thats where it ends, we will see again tonight how well she can lie to the Michigan people. I am not saying Devos is a perfect candidate but he is not Jennifer Granholm and that is saying alot. You libs really amaze me, you figt us on the Patriot act, you fight for AlQueda wanting them to have the same rights under the Geneva Conventions and worse than that the same rights as American citizens. You fight us on Illegal aliens in our country, trying to keep them here so they can vote for you. I dont get why you are so hard headed. And your only defense for Jennifer Granholm is an attack on Dick Devos, its no wonder so many people in Michigan are fed up with this Geovenor. Good luck Dave, you are going to need it and alot more come November 7th.
I was going to vote for DeVos but he talked himself out of my vote. He is not the same person his TV ads are selling.
I believe Granholm spent a lot of time at the beginning of her first couple years cleaning up the money mess the last republican left Michigan taxpayers. We forget that the Michigan legislature is controlled by Republicans. In spite of that she is making progress. Now she is hot on bringing companies to Michigan.
Thank you DeVos for reminding me how hard Mrs. Granholm works for us.
Here we go again, blamming everyone else but Granholm for the economy and her poor performance in the past four years. Some people will never get it but thats ok, there are enough of us who see through her rhetoric and lies and she is gone come Nov 7th. The only hard work Granholm has done is lying to protect her job. And because someone isnt as eloquent a speaker or as good a lier doesnt mean they cant do the job. Devos isnt perfect but he sure isnt Granholm and that is a huge improvement!!!!!
You are right about one thing Joshua, SOME people will "NEVER GET IT" It makes me want to pull my hair out reading this sh@!#tuff (that you republicans try to force feed us "liberals"). Can you give me ONE piece of information on how Granholm could have stopped what happed to our Auto Industry, the BIGGEST fall of our economy, just one, I am open minded enough to take it into consideration. And not another "Oh lets make fun of a democrat today" picture please. Thankyou.
Ask both candidates where they plan to recover the Small Business Tax Cut revenue; new business taxes on profits; new taxes on home owners(which Gov. Engle reduced thru consitutional amendment to allow retires on fixed income to remain in Michigan); or spending cuts. Neither the Republicans or Democrates want to state their solution to this issue.
Sure I give you the Auto Industry was self destructing on its own with no help from Jennifer Granholm. Yet she campained to turn Michigan around and four years later, here we are and OH MY GOD she has another plan and it will only take five more years. She is full of it as are you Crystal, I am glad to see that we are getting under your collar, must mean we are right! No pun intended. But more than jobs, what has she done for law enforcement?? What has she done about education?? What has she done about our prisons and letting felons out early?? And lets not even start with education, she is a failure and is going to be looking for a job just like thousands of Michiganders!!!!!!!
I thought everybody came here by choice Crystal, I didn't realize some of us were FORCED to read this. Yet alone being force fed, maybe you need a new keeper! Or definately better yet a NEW Govenor:)
Crystal, take heart in knowing that the responses noted above, in reply to your posting, only reflect the immature and mean-spirited mind set of those blinded by corporate-thinking, and not that of the hard-working grass-roots people of Michigan that know the truth. Let them continue to babble...you're above them and there is no need to reply to those who seem bent on getting a defensive last word in on a futile power struggle attempt.
How eloquent Diane, But if you where to have read the majority of these comments you would know that it has been ugly on both sides of the debate as it should be. We are fighting for things we beleave in and who runs this state is extreamly important! We all may not be as eloquent or snobbish as you but some of us are right!
Oh and by the way, you never answered any of my questions, your just like the governor, I am sure shes gonna be dodging questions all night!!!!
You know Joshua, you scare me. It is people like you that give all of us Republicans a bad name and iamge. Yes, thats right... I as a Republican can not stomach the thought of Dick DeVos as Govenor of the State of Michigan. Jennifer Granholm has not kept her promises...they all promise none of them can ever keep all of their promises.... even our side. DeVos is bad news for Michigan. Folks like you make me embarrased to be a Republican. Granholm has my vote because I am scared to death of what will happen to the State of Michigan under Dick Devos... so again I say... have a good life in your new State of Texas.
No one is any more up in arms in their posts than you seem to be.
Diane I have to say you must not have read Chrystal's comment of once again cutting people down. Are you not reading the same thing as me?
As for Grass roots, I am a very hard working single mother of 3 who gets no state aid, no child support or any other help. Don't presume to know me by the way I will cast my vote. ANYBODY has got to be better than Granholm. She has done nothing & continues to do nothing for this great state of Michigan & the people. She now has PLANS.....I'm sorry she took 4 years to come up with them. 4 YEARS!!!!
The ingnorance of some people just amazes me!!
I am a former 25 year resident of San Diego, California & have been here in the heart of Michigan for 6 years now. I could not believe the poverty levels when I came here & they continue to get worse. Something has to be done. Unfortunately our present Governor is lacking in the skills to bring this about. Another 4 years is way too much of the people of Michigan's time for her to come up with more excuses, promises & plans that aren't enacted.
I think everyone should get off the personal attacks and stick to facts. It is a fact Governor Granholm has not been able to get her agenda out because the Republicans control and have controlled the Michigan House and Senate for the past 14 years. It is a fact Engler left office with a $4billion dollar deficit, which is a violation of Michigan law. It is a fact DeVos and his wife Betsy are firm believers all workers in Michigan make too much in wages and benefits and support Right to Work in Michigan. In fact, the Republicans introduced two bills to the Commerce Committee which if passed, will make Michigan a Right to Work state. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, workers in Right to Work States such as Missouri, Indiana and Kentucky just to name a few earn on average $8,000 per year less while paying for the majority if not all of their medical insurance costs. I write this a long time, 23 year Air Force veteran and long time Republican - until now. I've gone Independent and there is no way in heck I'll support any Republican candidate this year nor in two years. It is time to take the power intoxicated party to the cleaners and let the pendulum swing the other way to see where we go.
Diane, I thank you for that, however I will respond because "I" was able to pull that great big stick out of "MY" rear years ago. Life is way too short to be so serious. Judy I apoligized to you once I will not do it again. My comments have ALL had an OBVIOUS comical and not to be taken to heart flare to them. Apparently you missed that. And Joshua, just when I thought we were getting along and able to discuss things like civil people,--you had to go and get nasty. Your questions, I can tell you from personal experience that I took advantage of one the the work force training programs she refers to and I am doing alright for myself. Law enforcement we have to all take part in. Counties vote on proposals to beef up law enforcement in their area. Is that what you are referring to? Prisons and felons, I dont know anything about those why dont you enlighten me with your fury of knowledge.
General:
I'm upset with the marketing methods used in politics these days.
The only people who choose a candidate by how badly they cut down there opponent are those whose education levels aren't high enough to realize just how badly they are hurting themselves.
I don't personally care for either the Democrat or Republican parties right now, but when I see Devos' argument based completely on how bad the encumbent is doing, but offering NO alternative but rhetoric and false analogies with vague comments thrown in IT SCARES ME! This is what we have right now in Bush! Someone who bullies our government into going his way by threatening to sling dirt on anyone who goes against him!
Oh, and commenting on an opponents comments while he/she is talking is rude and unprofessional.
Judy,
As a Californian myself (born in Sacto), I've been living here a bit longer (14 years) and remember how much worse places like Detroit were just 10 years ago and how corrupt things were under Engler.
Vote with your mind, Your heart is too easily fooled.
Crystal, maybe I can shed some light on the Law Enforcement and Corrections issues. You see, I retired from the Air Force as a Federal Agent, went to work as Michigan State Police Emergency Dispatcher and then moved to a position within Corrections. I've seen the tax cuts passed by the Republican Party continuously and seriously cut law enforcement and corrections staffings. You can see the results of the budget cuts by the highly publicized Selepak case which resulted in the tragic loss of lives. There simply are not enough Probation/Parole Agents or Correctional Staff (Officers, Health Care, Support) and the prisons are nearing the breaking point. A recent study conducted by an independent firm disclosed Michigan is understaffed in the Probation/Parole area by 340 Agents. However, the funding level only supports the hiring of 40 Agents. The tax cuts passed by the Republicans also impacted on the revenue sharing monies sent to every community by the Michigan Government. Additionally, the U.S. Senate/House, also controlled by the Republicans, at the insistence of President Bush, cut funding for the Community Policing program. So you see, Governor Granholm isn't responsible for the loss of police and fire protection in your communities and it is time WE THE PEOPLE hold those responsible, responsible.
Wow Gary, Thank you, If I have any more questions about ANYTHING AT ALL, I know who to ask.
You heard the Governor " All hands on deck", I would add women and children first if she is reelected. Blame, Blame, Blame, Blame, Blame. Thats all you libs are about, I guess some things will never change, fortunatly for us we can vote this Governor out!
Dick DeVos cannot, will not answer how he will pay for his tax cuts. He is a liar and a fraud.
Propose, propose, propose. Still after all this time. I don't seem to be hearing about Jennifer's successes in the last 4 years. Plenty of proposals, nothing solid though. Not from Jennifer herself or anyone else for that matter.
I will definately vote with my Mind. It breaks my heart to see this poverty. I'm not well off, I live week to week. I lived in the meth capital of the world & never saw this much neglect for the people of a state.
Trust me Crystal, I am not asking for an apology. I guess if you knew me also, you would know that those were comical undertones to my comments to you. I am not taking it seriously:)Please you don't either
Wow Steve, what an insightful comment! Cuting taxes encourages buisnesses to invest capital which puts more money in the pockets of the people whoi spend the money and create revenue. Its not that hard to understand, its working in the Federal Government and it can work in Michigan. And dont throw the deficit thing in my face, revenue for the federal government is at an all time high, yes spending is up but we have had 911 and two wars to deal with. The fact still remains that tax cuts have brought us out of a recession and have made the economies of 49 states better than they where 6 years ago.
Did we watch the same debate? Every time DeVos opened his mouth he was blaming Granhom for something. According to DeVos, every loss within the past 4 years is her fault because it took place under her watch. I'm surprised he didn't blame her for the Pistons and Red Wings losing in the playoffs. Or the early snowfall this year. He is great at pointing out all of Michigan's misfortunes. I'd much rather hear one his plans for restoration. How will he restore the economy in 4 years when it has been dependent on the aouto industry for 100 years. Should he win he must completely overhaul and produce a thriving economy in 4 years or all lies shall be exposed.
First of all, Jenniger Granholms lies have been exposed from her last campain! Argue that!!! Secondly, it is the Governors place to take the blame, the buck had to stop somewhere and she takes no responsibility for any of it! You may think that Devos is playing the blame game, instead he is just pointing out facts. We watched the same debate, you just missed what happened!
So if DeVos wins the state's economy will be completely turned around in 4 years?
We will have gained jobs and not lost jobs, we will have created an environment friendly to new buisness as well as take care of the buisnesses that are struggling. Things will be better and not worse. This is a no brainer, if the person you elect doesnt get the job done you fire them! It has been four years and all we have are proposals and a bunch of promises that meant nothing. If you want four more of the same than vote for Granholm.
Wait! We gave Granhom 4 years to restore the economy. She didn't do it. I don't want to see DeVos just "improve" our econmy I want to see it restored completely within his four years. "Improvement" is too vague a term. It can be twisted by either side to reflect their arguement. Will he restore our economy in 4 years? Yes or No?
Well Carl, I want world peace and a magic Genie! But to answer your question than yes, it can be done, I was watching the Gubenatorial debate in Maryland today in CSPAN and the current Governor there took their economy from a three Billion dollar deficit to a 1.2 Billion dollar surplus, so yes it can be done. Now Michigan is not Maryland but we can diversify and we can bring in foriegn automakers. So the answer to your question is yes! Four more years of Granholm wont get you anything.
Thanks Crystal - I think. I hope I didn't give you the impression I'm a know it all kind of guy - I'm not. I just think is important stuff. I believe this election is the most important I've ever seen. There is so much at stake here.
Dick DeVos has proposed cutting taxes and the Republican Party backdoored the Governor over the SBT. Eliminating that tax ($2billion)without replacing it somehow is going to be disastrous for Michigan. You'll see services cut and revenue sharing reduced or eliminated. Its the little people who are going to suffer, not the DeVos's of the state. Cutting taxes on businesses or NAFTA/CAFTA or any other TAs don't help anyone in the blue collar world. My brother lost his job in Menominee this past summer at Emmerson which supplies Sears with shopvacs. The plant my brother worked in was the most profitable and productive site in the Emmerson circle yet they closed up and moved to Mexico - Did they reduce the price for their product, NO. Are the company Execs making more in bonuses and such - YES.
Some are saying Unions have outlived their usefullness - I say their day is still to come. I'm not an economist but I know how to read and enjoy doing research. If you look back on the U.S. economy you'll see where as Unions grew, the middle class grew and the economy grew. As the Unions shrink, the middle class is shrinking and so is the economy. People forget its the middle class of this country that drives the economy by buying houses, cars, campers, washer/dryers, etc. If you continue to create low wage jobs, which is what we're seeing nation wide, no one will by buying anything. Just look at the housing market and how its folding up and the auto industry. The national economy isn't growing. If it wasn't for the war in Iraq and the battle against the Taliban, the steel, electronics and manufacturing areas would show a significant drop. We used to be a nation with pride in supporting ourselves. Now, we're becoming weak as our industrial base slowly evaporates. We need to buy made in the USA products to keep our country alive. we need to hold elected officials, no matter the party, accountable for the actions or inactions. We need to get control of our country to ensure our way of life survives and again become a world leader.
Seriously Gary, that was a sincere thank you. What I actually wanted to say was "Damnit Gary" thats what I wanted to say.:) If you knew me you would be laughing right now because I could NEVER explain something like that so thourough and detailed. You seem like a very intelligent person and I enjoy reading your postings. Once again, thank you.
The sky is falling, the sky is falling. Boy you libs are doom and gloom. All you can say is that our national economy is horrible and things are going to hell in a hand basket, when that is actually not true! How do you explain unemployment rates lover than during the entire Clinton administration?? look at the DOW, we are hitting records daily! Gas prices are down. You need to have a reality check! Its time to get Michigan back to work and competetive with the rest of the nation! Just look at the Tigers, a change of management and they are going to the World Series, thats what Michigan needs new direction, fresh perspectives, and a new Governor!
Cute Joshua, actually life is a riot, I intend to keep it that way no matter what happens. Unemployment rates? Are you serious? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out gas prices dropped 2 months prior to election season, Republicans needed all the help they could get. Notice diesel prices haven't hardly moved however it's a fact that most OTR drivers dont vote so why bother. I agree it is time to get MI back to work and competitive with the rest of the nation, and voting Granholm back in is only the first step. You have a Granholm bashing, Bushy supporting, mudslinging Great day!!
I am all over it!!! If you want to waist your vote on aunt Jenny than by all means go right ahead, but as we all know you libs are used to dissapointment, just look at the 2000 and 2004 Presidential elections. And where do you come up with these hair brained ideas that OTR drivers dont vote? Sweetie you are lost in space! Maybe you can help get Granholm back to work in January. You have a Devos hating, Blame it on Bush, wish I lived in france, Loony Liberal day!
I'm serious, "Most OTR drivers dont vote" Emphasis on "MOST" I dont hate anyone, I refuse to. I dont want to live in France I'm a horse lover. Nope, I'll stand my ground right where I'm at, rain, shine, snow, slop and all.
So where do you get your information that "most" OTR drivers dont vote? Havee you ever heard of an absentee ballot? I was deployed over seas andmanaged to cast a ballot in several elections, so I think you need to check your facts. And as far as the rain, shine, snow, slop and all you cant beat Michigan!
My husband is an Owner Operator, Hes has a lot of time to kill sometimes while he has to sit and wait so he talks to other drivers and reads the Trucking Info in one form or another, or listens to the News in different states. Like the rest of the country it's getting very political. He gave me the percentage I'm almost positive he said only about 30% of OTR drivers vote. I'm not sure why that would be so unbelievable to you, many many people in general dont vote. I could probably list 20 people without a pause that dont vote. And before you jump all over that one, it's probably not to your sides advantage. It's ridiculous but true. And "--Nooo, I've never heard of the absentee ballot. HES JUST BEEN TAKING THAT WEEK OFF!!! Good for you and your party, it's nice to hear people do take the initiative to try and make a difference. Even if--We'll, I'm not going there right now.
I think it is sad that soo many people refuse to exercise their right to vote when poeple in Iraq went to the polls in record numbers under the threat of death by AlQuida. There is no excuse not to vote in this country, our governement has bent over backwards to allow people to vote! And your party has taken it as far as to call it discrimination to ask to see a photo ID at a polling site. So the 20 people you know need to get a clue and maybe you can help educate them. Thanks for the cheap shot but you only have three more weeks before you'll be eating those words!
Gary, It was Bill Clinton who signed NAFTA into law, not Bush and not Devos. The last thing we need is anothe appeasing liberal in office who will ignore the nations needsbecause he is too busy with his interns!
Hey there, we have been digging around for what the pundits thought about who won the debate and we thought we'd ask you all as well.
Check out Michigan Governor Race: Who Won the Debates? and cast your comment!
After watching the debate last night, i am even more convinced that Granholm is the right person for the governor position. She may not be the best person out there, but seeing as we only have two choices to pick from, she obviously is the better candidate. Sure, Granholm may not be perfect and she probably has made mistakes, but does it make sense to elect someone who has no ideas other than that Granholm's were bad? Devos gives no explanation on how he would make things better or what actions he would take. All that he seems to be able to say is that he'd be better than Granholm. I can say that i'm smarter than Albert Einstein, but without any proof, no one is going to believe me. The same should be true of our governer; we need to have proof that HE will make things better.
On another note, I would just like to comment on the posts that have been made by Joshua. I can understand that you are a huge fan of Devos, but that gives you no right to criticize other people's ideas nor to criticize other people. Calling someone "snobbish" or putting them down simply because of their opinion is just immature. Do you have so litte information in favor of Devos that the only way you can respond to people's arguments is by criticizing them? And also, I would just like to know what you actually do during the day that enables you to be on this website 24hrs a day? Do you not have anything better to do with your time?
Point of order, Joshua: you point to the Governor of Maryland taking the state from a three billion dollar deficit to a 1.2 billion dollar surplus. Governor Granholm took Michigan from a four billion dollar deficit. The only place folks like Dick DeVos and Engler seem to be able to take us is to massive budget deficits.
Mel, its really none of your buisness what I do all day. And last time I checked there is this thing called freedom of speech, if you have a problem with that than I suggest you relocate. You are another shining example of someone who pays no attention to the debates and refuses to do any homework to pick a candidate. Dick Devos has laid out a plan but I am sure you are only going to hear what you want to hear. Granholm has had four years and has made a mess of Michigan, and you and every other Liberal on this site have yet to debate that simple fact. I suggest you do a little homework and find out who really has a plan for Michigan!
Here, let me help you out Mel:
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb...../610160433
http://www.devosforgovernor.co.....roundPlan/
These should answer your questions and quiet your criticism of me, I have every right to say what I want when I want! I have served this country for eight years making sure that I have that freedom! Have a Great Day!
Dave, Another key distortion Granholm keeps crowing about is that she inherited a $4 billion cumulative deficit. She didn't. Most of that was declining revenue that happened from lost jobs and fleeing companies on her four-year watch. She can't blame it all on former Gov. John Engler. As I had semtated, the Governor of Maryland turned his deficit around to a surplus. Jennifer has done the opposite. You cant argue with the facts! But I appreciate the attempt.
Joshua, your "facts" are simply the side-effect from drinking all the Republican koolaid. It's as if anything a Republican says is fact simply because they say it. I don't believe any politician, Republican or Democrat knows the facts. They simply reiterate their party's spin on any event. It is quite sad.
I believe "Joshua" is actually Betsy DeVos. When was the last time anyone saw her? Coincidence? I think not.
Cute Carl, is that the best you can come up with, I will be more than happy to show you who I really am. its amazing to see how irritated you Libs become when facts are shoved in your faces. Time and again you get ugly, but thats ok, its not easy to be consistantly wrong on every topic that faces our country. So continue your cheap shots, its all you've got!
What no more smart remarks from Carl? I am sure you are full of hot air, lets see what you made of funny boy? Answer this, what has Jennifer Granholm done in the past four years besides blow hot air?
So, Joshua, does the DeVos campaign pay you by the WORD??? Your "you libs" nonsense is tiresome...if I want to hear that crap I'll just tune in where you do: El Rushbo. At least he's entertaining and fairly original.
DeVos looked bad in the debates, though he clearly got better by the last one and made it more interesting.
My problem is that he still sounded the same, and it wasn't any more satisfying the third time around. Everyone...everyone..wants to lose the SBT, including Granholm. She, unlike DeVos, has consistantly told people the bad news they don't want to hear: get rid of the tax, fine, but the money's got to come from somewhere. She has provided specifics on how she would replace the portion of revenues lost that she determined as absolutely neccessary. DeVos has done nothing but wiggle and dodge, and that....to quote a famous pyramid-scheme soap salesman, is DISAPPOINTING. He's been pretty quiet about how he would replace revenue from abolishing the personal property tax, as well. I think he got a little OVERPROMISED on that one, and has been running from questions about it ever since.
The fact is that Engler looted the State to leave with a balanced budget, and left a huge mess for someone else to clean up. Engler had the legislature in his pocket, yet did little to deal with the economic threats to Michigan, as you expect Granhold to do in her first term. John E. was there for a few terms and fiddled while Michigan burned. Granholm was left to sweep up after him, and, to be fair, only did a moderately good job early on. Of course, she had a Republican House and Senate who were FAR from cooperative. Their eye was on the '06 race for the past 4 years. wink-wink
I had high expectations for Granholm during her first term and am not satisfied with everything she has done (or not done), but I just don't see a real alternative in Dick DeVos. Nothing I saw during the three debates has changed that, and your chief arguement in his favor (he's the UN-Granholm) is a pretty thin gruel. I'll be splitting my votes between red and blue candidates, as I always do, but Granholm gets the nod from me in '06. Sorry "El Josh-bo!"
Joshua, how can it be that you are the only person out here with all the facts? How can everyone else be so wrong? You are the only person out here not destorting the truth?
Dave HAS OBVIOUSLY done some FACT finding homework and knows what he is talking about. His posts are right on the money.
Not all of us out here are "you liberals" some of us are Republicans but are not quite tipping the scale all the way to the right. Most of us are not wearing blinders and can see through Dick DeVos... yes even some of us Republicans. Many of us do understand that when Governor Engler left office he left an enormous deficit behind and many of us know he did it on purpose as we had no way to win the election. He knew that a Democratic Govenor would never get anywhere with the Repulican Legislature. It was a genius... he set the Democrats up for THIS election. And some of us Republicans were able to see through him the same way we see through Dick DeVos.
You need to get a grip... your posts sound like you are about to have have a stroke.
Nice play on words Cris, I take that as the utmost compliment, atleast I know my information is comming from a legitamite source. So jenny inherited all this crap, poor Jenny, she shouldnt have promised the world to get the job if she knew she couldnt deliver! And if she didnt know what she was in for than you voted in a Moron and four years later you CANT defend her record, all you can do is place blame. You are pathetic and that is why your party has done soo poorly. I think Devos did state how he is going to fix the SBT, by bringing in the congress and working together on a reasonable and fair tax. If Michigan is going to get back on its feet than we are going to have to work together, to think that one person has all the answers is ludacris! Thats why she failed in her first term, and thats why there wont be a second! She is going down like air america, the only question is are you going to be riding her coat tails? El Joshbo has spoken!
Thanks Melanie, I appreciate the support, If you dont liek what I have to say than dont read the posts. You can believe what you wnat to but you have yet to justify Jennifer Granholms last campaign. I wont vote for a liar and Devos may not be perfect but he is a hell of alot better than Granholm. Thats my opinion and I will continue to defend it, regardless of what you think. Aint America Great!
Joshua, I did not try to justify Granholm's last campaign.. nor did I say I agree with everything she has to say. I did make a point of saying that many Republicans were aware of the deficit left behind by John Engler saw him for what he was and see the exact same thing if not worse in Dick DeVos. I did not and will not try to justify Granholm's campaign promises.. although no one truly runs for office with anything other than promises.. they never are going to say I will try to do my duty. They will promise and do promise just like Dick DeVos just like Mike Rogers... just like Debbie Stabenow.. all of them run based on promises.
I am not happy with the State of the State of Michigan but in no way can blame all of this on Govenor Granholm...like you seem to want to do. She will get my vote this time around.
Joshua, I feel like I should know you after so many posts. I think what I and others are trying to say to you (though maybe you're past hearing) is that the world is a little more complicated than you can fit in between the commercials on talk radio or paint in black and white. Jennifer Granholm campaigned for change after 12 years of John Engler (some bad but some good but definitely a lot of corruption and that four billion dollar debt that reall was there). The auto industry collapsed. I am old enough to remember what the auto industry meant to Michigan. It's fashionable to bash the auto industry today, but God help you if you did it in 1962. People worked hard all week and year and took well earned vacations and spent hard earned dollars. The auto industry built the Mackinac Bridge and the auto industry built this state. The auto industry made a promise to its workers, a hard-won promise, but a promise nonetheless. Give us the best years of your life, help us put America on wheels and we will take care of you. It was a bold promise that unfortunately ran into trouble as medicine changed from the country doctor to the long-term care facility. It's nobody's "fault", unless it's a crime or a sin to say "We will take care of our elders."
I have posted a lot on links for you. You have yet to comment on any I have shared with you, even though I looked at all of yours, even the crybaby one. I ask you now to watch this one. It's by a real Republican. I know it is because he's saying the same thing that I have said many times to to my wife and friends and anyone who will listen. I voted for Bill Milliken three times. I am a Republican, but before that, I am an American. What the Republican Party is doing these days is not American. It isn't Republican either.
Enough preaching though. Please watch this Joshua.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9x306I0GTWY
Dave, I went to your lik and am lost as to what I am supposed to watch. But let me make a few things clear, It is going to take someone with a buisness background to fix this economy, I am sick of empty promises and will not reelect someone who has screwed up her first term as badly as she did. Its time to give someone else a chance. As for the Auto industry, they did this to themselves and shame on Michigan for being so damn independant on them! We coulkd have avoided this problem years ago with a little foresight.
But on a moral level, I refuse to vote for someone who supports abortion, especially late term abortion. I dont want to face my maker someday and answer that I didnt do everything I could to support the lives of unborn children. Just because medical science is able to do something doesnt make it a constitutional right! If that was the case I have a list of people on this site who need labotamies!
I am not going to bow orchange my views or beliefs for anyone and I will exercise my right to free speech as often as I want. God only knows I have given enough of my life and my family for this country. If you dont like what I have to say, so what! dont read it, but dont try to silence me either!
"Big shots are little shots who keep shooting." ~~ Author unknown
Joshua, don't you think it's time to let the other Devos supporters have a chance to state their opinions? You seem to be the only one on this site who argues with every pro-Granholm post. You'd think that one would eventually realize when they are in the minority and admit to it. You are one of a very few Devos supporters, and whether you want to accept it or not, things are not looking good for your candidate. You don't have to like Granholm, but you most likely will have to learn to tolerate her for another 4 years. And no one is trying to silence you, were just tired of hearing the same things coming from you again and again. Have a Great Day!
I feel I must chime in to a few statements.. i just spent an hour reading all the comments... joshua, dave, judy,.. all lots of good stuff. And you know what? I'd read one, lead toward one candidate, till I got to the next comment, then lean back to the other candidate. what the??? actually good points on both sides.
Heres my "wrap up", in a nutshell ( condensed version of quotes), "Granholm has done nothing, after inheriting a mess from former gov, shes made empty promises that werent kept, and people plan to leave the state if shes re-elected" great, just great.
And Devos (condensed) is portrayed as a greedy amway heir who has cut michigan jobs, and can not speak well, is canned, has no real plan, and is full of sound bites that are attack related.
did I get it all? surely I missed something. One thing that is more clear in my head now, is that NEITHER one of them are worth a SH#ZZiT - seriously. Reminds me of the bush kerry race, Lesser of 2 evils rule? maybe, But really i'm considering NOT VOTING, and even getting out of the state out of disgust. The stats for Michigan in the devos plan are horrific, how bad the state ranks - its alarming. Can any ONE single person help it? The way I look at it, blaming the governor is like blaming ronald mcdonald when you get bad hamburger at mickey d's. It STARTS with the local lawmakers. And in my city Ive seen more and more empty buildings and warehouse than ever in 40 plus years of being in this state. It's crazy! Someday we will have a change, but a new or old governor wont make too much difference, really...its gunna be a long long time....and a tons of new local legislators that listen to the people
Some of who have posted are not necessairly Pro-Granholm just ANTI-DEVOS. I did not go through and reread all of the posts but do not remember too many folks trying to silence you Joshua. At least you have conceded somewhat that Granholm did not drive the auto industry out of Michigan.
Now we know the real reason behind your vote for DeVos. You must not face the same maker a I will someday. Because my maker will not make me answer for other peoples choices. Even my choice to vote for Granholm over DeVos.
He may wonder about your labotomy comments though.
Your comment makes it easier to understand your extreme dedication, Joshua. Abortion is the most polarizing issue we have. In my opinion, it is allowing politicians to perpetrate all manner of outrages because "at least they're not killing babies".
I feel for you though, as you are unable to open your mind to anything because of it.
I dont mind being in the minority, especially on this site, I actually enjoy the debate. And Melanie the labotomy statement may heve been over the top but I was trying to drive home the point that just because we can do it doesnt mean we should. Heres a better analagy: We can drop Nuclear bombs and have in Japan twice, I dont recommend doing it again.
I am rather intrigued by all the discust for Devos though, its as though he has done something personally to each of you on this site. Its the same with all the Hate for Bush, I just dont understand why a party that claims to be the party of the people can be so spiteful? A good example is the Foley scandle, I would hate to be a gay man in the Democratic party today! They are at the verge of crucifying all of them, do you know that there is a list being made of every gay republican in office? Just to try to affect this election? This is not the party for me. And although Republicans are not perfect, they seem to be the lesser of the two evils. I feel safe knowing we have a president that wont cut and run and will use every asset we have to fight this war. Democrats are a party of constant whining and no ideas, atleast no single idea that you can all agree upon.
So I will vote a republican ticket as I have done since I started voting, Republicans take care of our Military which is huge in my life, they are strong on defense, and they can agree on ideas instead of turning on their own like canibals, just ask Joe Lieberman.
Devos is not Engler and soemone else deserves a shot at helping Michigan, it may not get done in four years but you sure can do alot! And this Governor hasnt done anything, just ask Ricky Holland.
Hi, me again. I'm starting to worry that I'm the only undecided voter left in Michigan judging by this discussion.
I was out of town on business and missed the 3rd debate. Would anyone know where I can find a video (preferred) or a transcript?
To the two gentlemen who responded to my previous post (#77):
Joshua: I was rather insulted by your insinuation that choosing not to spend my time reading DeVos' 65 page plan made me an uninformed voter. I don't read every word of legislation passed by Congress, but I get the jist of it. DeVos sounds like a lot of the anti-Bush Democrats. "Vote for change" seems to be their rallying cry but damn few have an actual plan.
Brad: Abortion isn't really an important issue for me. I think I can sympathize with both sides. I certainly don't like it, especially the more brutal methods, but I also don't know if I think we ought to be locking women up for it. I think contraception, education, and anti-poverty initiatives could take the number of performed abortions to near zero. Plus for now it's a federal issue, not a state one.
Seth, you wanted to know what Devos has planned for Michigan, I was simply stating where you could find your answer. I think that voting is the most important civic duty we have as citizens and I choose to do my homework when putting people in office. The choices we make today can affect our tomorrows and our childrens tomorrows.So I appologize if I came off that way. There are three weeks to go and plenty of time to look into the candidates, I encourage you to do so.http://web.wxyz.com/vote2006/debatevideo.html
Here is the third debate, I hope it helps with your decision!
Ok Joshua, I was almost seeing the more gentle side of you in your last few posts. Although you seem to still lump all Democrats together as bad people. They are people like you and me... some good some bad .. just like the people in our Republican party some good some bad. It is ok to look at things differently and to disagree with other folks.
BUT... then you had the audacity to end the post with mentioning the name of the little 7 year old boy who was abused his entire life and was killed by his foster parents last spring in Williamston, Michigan. HOW DARE YOU bring a dead child into this argument. JUST LIKE DEVOS DID in his opening statement in the 3rd debate the other night. HOW DARE YOU for one minute blame that on the Govenor of Michigan. I live right down the road from Williamston...I helped search for that little boy when his parents reported him missing. It is a sad horrible disgusting story that ended in the death of a 7 year old child. Statements like that are what cause many Democrats and some Republicans to be disgusted with the likes of Dick DeVos... and yes with you too. You were totally out of line. Sick.. Sick...Sick...
Enjoy your new State of Texas.
Get over yourself, If this Governor wouldnt have cut funding as much as she did, he might still be alive. Where does the buck stop? Obvously you dont blame her for anything. Its time to fix this screwed up state and with or without your vote we are going to do it. I am not going to forget what she has done to this state, Devos says he will take responsability for what happens on his watch unlike Granholm! Ill be enjoying Michigan knowing their are 500 more police officers on the road the first year Devos is in office and that social services wont be cut soo bad that every abused kid I see come through the doors of the ER wont be a number that protective services cant get to. Get your head out of the ground and wake up! You call yourself a republican, I highly doubt that. You sound just like Granholm, wanting to forget what happened but I wont let you!
How will he be paying for the 500 police officers. It seems anyone running for a government post promises more police officers. (Oldest trick in the book.) And then they get in office, work the budget, and make the cuts. It would not be the first time Devos cut jobs. Joshua, you place too much faith in your candidates.
Joshua, that certainly stirs up some emotion. How can you possibly blame anyone other than the MONSTER who raised his/her fist to that poor child. No one single person could have predicted or unfortunately prevented that with funds alone without knowing that it is happening. Be thankful for all the "Nosey Neighbors" and Teachers or concerned family members and friends that refuse to just shut the door on it, or convince themselves that mabey it's not as bad as it seems. We have a social worker in our family, for EVERY single call that is made, a visit is made to the house and the appropriate procedures are followed. At least in the Tri City area and I'm certain we are not financially flourishing compared to the rest of Michigan. I understand your disgust and frustration but instead of blaming EVERYTHING on our Governor, lets place blame where blame is due.
can u tell me about how jennifer granholm is going to help the the U.S. in the next four year
Lets take the two billion dollar Jobs fund (goverment regulated beuocracy) and use that to help replace the SBT and put more officers on the street? We dont need government regulating buisnesses just making an environment that is conducive to buisness. And Crystal, I am so glad that the protective services in your community is getting to the children that need the help, but that is not the case where I live, I work in the local ER and send kids home that have been abused with a promise that protective services will get to it. I cannot in good conscience vote for four more years of the same BS that she has been dishing out. Our schools deserve better, our children deserve better, and our citizens deserve better. I am placing the blame where it is due Crystal and it starts with the incompetance of our Govenor and runs down the cha the in to the two parents who I wish lived in Texas, becasue Texas has an express lane for people like them, strait to death row!
what most of you seem to not be realizing is that making the changes she said she would does not happen over night.... things get tied up and bills take time to be overturned/ passed.. yes, it can take as along as four years... And the auto industry is failing because corporation heads have chosen to invest their companies over seas for lower cost and take the jobs away from Michigan residents... and DeVos has done the same thing with his company. Answer my question, Joshua, all knowing republican, why would you expect someone to creat more jobs for fellow michigan residents when he wouldnt even give them jobs with his own company?? If he were that concerned, then he would have done his part to help our economy out. and instead he sold-out. he is a sell out for Big Business... A light-hearted example, Bells Brewery in Kalamazoo selling out to Budweiser... only difference Budweiser is an American company at least... I am personally choosing to give Granholm another chance. She the far lesser of two evils, if you will...
You can believe what you want about Devos and Amway, but let me put it too you like this, He did his Job for Amway, keeping his company competative in Michigan even though he had to deal with all the rediculous taxes that your lesser of two evils has kept on buisnesses in Michigan. He could have taken his company elsewhere but last time I checked they are still in Michigan when others left. You cant blame a CEO for taking care of his company and keeping it profitable. Now your lesser of two evils has made a climate for buisnesses that makes it difficult to impossible to bring new buisnesses into Michigan and that is driving buisnesses that are here out. So go ahead and vote for a liar, its your right, just remember, she is all talk, and your being dooped into voting for her again!
Do they have Google where you are, J-Man? Your baseless assertions are getting old.
"The Competitiveness Report concludes that Michigan’s business taxes are modestly below the national average, and the Anderson Report concludes that Michigan’s business taxes are slightly above the national average. Both reports agree that Michigan is not a particularly high business tax state. Nor is Michigan a particularly low business tax state."
This is from the ridiculously liberal Upjohn Institute.
http://www.upjohninst.org/michreportqanda.html
You must be a democrat! And missed the last three debates. What about the SBT? I read your report and they stated that Michigan’s business taxes are slightly above the national average, knowing this and that we have an unemployment rate of 7.1% wouldnt you want to change our taxes? Not Granholm, as a matter of fact she has fought loosing the SBT! How does her plan help put Michigan back on track and entice new buisness to Michigan? We have to stop blaming and start making changes. What makes you think she will do anything different in the next four years? She promised to turn things around in her last campaign and she hasnt, yet the majority of her supporters defend her saying you cant turn things around in four years! Well tell her that! The taxes that are in Place need to be changed, they are unfair to buisness and we need new buisnesses in Michigan if we are going to keep our state out of a depression. Enough BS lets fix our state.
You didn't read the report. Taxes aren't the problem. The fact that the US auto industry has collapsed is the problem. That and the fact that many of our citizens aren't well educated enough to be good employees for knowledge industries.
I'm a Libertarian, by the way, and barely smart enough to recognize a mind that is so tightly shut that nothing coherent is likely to ever get in or out of it.
Still, because you asked, what makes me think that the next four years of Governor Granholm will be different is the fact that we are raising our educational standards and spending billions to encourage new business development, including the research that your candidate pooh-poohed in the last debate.
The problems Michigan is facing didn't start with Granholm or Engler. To assume that four years is enough time to fix them is childish in the extreme. About what I would expect from a close-minded billionaire who is anti-education like Dick DeVos.
I am sure you vote for the close minded billionare John Kerry who voted for the troops before he voted against them but I guess its ok to vote for a Billionare if they fit into your views. And your right, to expect a candidate to fix things in four years is childish but that is exactly what granholm told us she would do the last time she ran for Governor! I think it is you that is close minded and needs to open your eyes! You cant expect me to believe that the whole state of Michigan is employed by the auto industry? and that all of Michigans problems are due to the auto industry, seriously get a grip! We need a Governor that is going to create a buisness friendly environment, not more beurocracy and empty promises. Cutting taxes will help, we need to do whatever it takes to diversify our economy and help all buisnesses out. We need to get to the point that if the auto industry colapsed tomorrow Michigan will be ok. Your Governor made alot of empty promises four years ago and is doing it again! Some people really are closed minded, isnt that right Pete?
“The truth is that Governor Granholm’s record on job creation is so weak that she’s resorted to the typical political attacks of a career politician,” said DeVos for Governor campaign manager Greg McNeilly. “In fact, she has no job creation record whatsoever - Michigan has lost more than 100,000 jobs during her administration. It’s clear Governor Granholm can’t get it done for Michigan, and will lie non-stop if that means getting herself reelected. Dick DeVos will get the job done. He understands what it takes to compete and win in the international marketplace. Dick DeVos is a proven Michigan job maker.”
Through her decietful campaign ads, Granholm has proven again that she will not let the facts get in the way of her bid for re-election.
The Liberal Granholm has done much to feed the anger of the voters in Michigan over rising gas prices with alot of rhetoric but with what has become typical for Liberal Democrats, NO ACTION!
* Seventeen separate oil and energy companies have made contributions to the Governor’s campaign fund, totaling over $158,000 – and that’s not counting her secret slush fund. These companies include Marathon Oil Company, Michigan Petroleum, Rupp Oil, Nordstrom Oil and Atlas Oil.
* Dick DeVos is not accepting PAC money for his gubernatorial campaign. As governor, he will not be held captive to special interest dollars, which have taken from the current administration’s ability to lead effectively.
*Despite her political posturing, Governor Granholm invests state money in oil companies: $832 million’s worth in oil company giant Exxon-Mobil alone. *Detroit News, 4/26/06
As Governor, Jennifer Granholm has been as useless as tits on a boar hog. Liberals have expressed a destructive desire to change the Constitution so that Granholm could run for President.
Granholm at one time expressed a desire to give convicted felons
With Granholm as our governor, however, our state crime statistics are not too good. Two of our cities: Detroit and Flint rank as America’s 2nd and 4th MOST DANGEROUS cities respectively (Lansing State Journal 11/21/05). But it should be noted that she spearheaded a review of the Prison Health Care System in Michigan. “The governor is very concerned about the issue of prison health care,” said Granholm Press Secretary Liz Boyd. “We want to make sure the prisoners are getting proper care.”
I guess it doesn’t matter that people are losing jobs in Michigan. The Governor won’t be losing any sleep at nite because industry and manufacturing jobs are leaving Michigan faster then illegal immigrants flow over the border from Mexico to America, as long as convicts are receiving the best health care possible.
At least as a businessman, DeVos has a solid record in making money and creating Jobs in West Michigan. Granholm is a politician, better at creating dependence on government rather then creating independence.
If you are still considering casting your vote for Granholm, and you have one ounce of common sense, then this alone should be the deal breaker.
Question for Michigan Taxpayers… Michigan Taxes are paying for T.V. Ads to ask Companies to move to Michigan. This sounds good, except the T.V. Ads are running in Michigan??? Why would Governor Granholm advertise in Michigan when the Companies we are looking for are not in Michigan??? IT SURE SOUNDS LIKE TAXPAYER MONEY IS PROMOTING GOVERNOR GRANHOLM’S RE-ELECTION???
You can’t make this stuff up! You cannot fix stupid.
Speaking of fixing something, you would figure with all of the money that Granholm has stolen from Michigan Taxpayers she could at least afford to hire John Kerry’s Plastic Surgeon to have that wart removed from her face. If money’s an issue, I’ll donate .50 cents for some Cheeze Whiz to spread on that wart and she can let a rat knaw it off.
Given her record as Governor and the fact that every promise she made about jobs has come up empty, I think it’s clear that we in Michigan need to vote this BUM out of office!
I cant believe I just read through all of this. Many people have made sound, logical arguments but some people are a bit too stubborn, closed minded and only see facts that help their argument.
Joshua:
"The Competitiveness Report concludes that Michigan’s business taxes are modestly below the national average, and the Anderson Report concludes that Michigan’s business taxes are slightly above the national average. Both reports agree that Michigan is not a particularly high business tax state. Nor is Michigan a particularly low business tax state."
You choose to only see the Anderson report. Replace the SBT by "bringing in the congress and working together on a reasonable and fair tax"
That's pretty specific....not. That is not a plan, that's an idea.
If Michigan's economic reliance lies on the auto industry
And If the auto industry collapses
Then Michigance economy will collapse.
If the state legislature has a republican majority
Then it will be difficult for a liberal governer to implement a liberal plan. You cannot change the infastructure of a state economy relying on one industry for the majority of its economic stability in under four years.
I'd like to see Dick DeVos do as well as Granholm if it were the other way around: A Republican governor and liberal state legislature.
Jennifer Granholm has no control over gas prices. Gas prices go up, auto industry goes down. We have a reliance on that industry that is now beginning to change. It is not very hard to understand.
I'm not a Republican or Democrat, hell I dont even support capitalism or any supported way of doing things, so keep that in mind.
Everyone should stop what they are doing, figure out how to make nanobots that fix damaged cells and prevent disease so we can live as long as needed. Whoever is not working on nanobots should be working on making spaceships.
Nanobots and spaceships, thats the industry we should all be in. We dont have much time left, the world is getting ****ed up. Let's move move move before it's too late!
Thanks.
Ok Jason or should I call you Space Cadet?? Lets make this easy for you so you can get back to your star trek convention: Granholm didnt get the job done, she promised to fix our economy and did not deliver! This means she lied. Time to fire her and start over! You just keep working with your toys and well fix Michigan.
I'm glad I'm not running for Governor(no need to comment, thanks:)"WOW" Talk about being ripped apart, chopped up, chewed on, and spit out. Oh yeah, and coated with Cheese Whiz. You have to be pretty determined for your cause to withstand such torment.
Joshua said:
"Ok Jason or should I call you Space Cadet?? Lets make this easy for you so you can get back to your star trek convention: Granholm didnt get the job done, she promised to fix our economy and did not deliver! This means she lied. Time to fire her and start over! You just keep working with your toys and well fix Michigan."
Your logic is flawed in several instances. Let's analyze your previous post...
Q1: "Lets make this easy for you so you can get back to your star trek convention"
R1)Your assumption about me being the "Star Trek" type is completely wrong.
------
Q2: "Granholm didnt get the job done, she promised to fix our economy and did not deliver! This means she lied."
R2) She did not lie. If she said she was going to fix the economy but didnt, and did so on purpose, THEN it would be a lie. That is not the case in this situation. The reason for the failed economy was NOT in the hands of Jennifer Granholm.
R2.a: Granholm had no control over the fate of the auto industry. Our dependece on it was built over the 20th century and beyond. If the auto industry collapses, our economy colapses.
------
Q3: "Time to fire her and start over!"
R3) You dont replace a public officer like the Governer of a state and just start over. It's not that simple. It takes a transition period--the undoing of the previous administration if you will.
------
Q4: "You just keep working with your toys"
R4) I'm not working with toys. Advanced technologies involving nanotechnology and Artificial Intelligence will shape the course of humanity forever.
------
Q5: "well fix Michigan."
R5) Sorry, you'll do anything but. Dick DeVos is NOT going to win the election. Send me a postcard from Texas.
------
END
Somebody has had too much Kool Aid! I would hold off on my celebration until all the votes are counted, you have more excuses than Michael Jackson at a petting zoo.
1. She made promises she didnt keep! She Lied, dont try to spin that cause you cant
2. Replacing Granholm and starting over wont take four years to do. Unlike Granholm Devos is not a Liar!
3. I appologize for the Star Trek remark, I would hate to offend any Trekkies by comparing them to you!
4. We will fix Michigan! And in four years, I wont have to make up excuses for Devos as you have had to do for Granholm.
5. When can we get you in one of those space ships??
What I am not understanding is all this whining about the auto industry? There are 50 states in this great nation of ours, and obviously they can make it without the auto industry, what is Michigan's problem? If you really understand the SBT you would realize that because of this businesses are being taxed & punished for being in Michigan. Makes no sense what so ever!
Joshua, I love reading your comments! I agree on most topics with you. Just because you are the most "verbal" and take a stand for what you believe you have become the human dartboard.
I stand with you!! How can anybody except & excuse a Governor that has made excuse & after excuse for why her initial promises to the citizens of Michigan have not come about. In my eyes the children are the most important citizens of Michigan. They cannot be well provided for with excuses, nor well educated with excuses.
ITS TIME FOR A CHANGE PEOPLE! WAKE UP!
"JUDY" Where have you been? Damn Democrats have been up one side of Joshua and down the other. "Who's Whining"?
Well said Judy, I am glad not everyone on this site has been suckered by Granholm again!!! We can and must do better for our kids and for our families. Granholm hasnt gotten the job done yet alone started, her time is up and I am one citizen that is glad for it!
Been working my butt off:)
I know Crystal, I feel bad letting the sharks feed on him, but he's got a good handle on things.
Just stating the facts, trying to make people realize that the pied piper (Granholm) is at it again!
Joshua was mentioning earlier (quite a while back you probably wont be able to find the post now;) that he was turning a new leaf. Yes mam, I believe he's feeling a little bit like a LEFTY now. I think we scared him
I dont think so Crystal! Unless lefty means voting for Devos, then Im in!
I can face our nations enemy in combat, I can handle a few libs no problem!
Alright, Fine! Just thought you could use a little laugh while everyone RELOADS! And NO,NO lefty does not mean voting for Devos---Your obsessed!!
Joshbo:
A few thousand words later, and you still don't make any more sense than you did in your first post. The DeVos folks aren't getting their moneys worth from you. But then, they've got a huge amount of unregulated cash to throw around.
Your snarky, smarty-pants pose is kind of sad, actually. I'm thinking that a Star-Trek convention might be a real adventure for you...getting out and meeting some people you can relate to.
Joshua
Blinders on.. narrow minded... thick headed... much like Dick DeVos and George Bush. NO one else has the answers but you.
GRANHOLM ALL THE WAY...
OBAMA FOR PRESIDENT..
Have a good life in Texas.
Judy, the automotive industry was not rooted in the 49 other states in this great country of ours. Michigan was the automotive capital of the world. That is the difference. That is why it was such a huge hit for Michigan. And of course your bud Joshua would lead you to believe it is Granholms fault that Michigan was so reliant on the automotive industry even though she has been Govenor for four years (so far!) and the automotive industry has been around for years and years...
Sam, If you had actually read any of my posts you may learn something and Cris pull your head out of your head out of your posterior. Your cheap shots wont phase me, I will continue to tell the truth, even if no one is listening. And who said I blamed the auto industry on Granholm Sam?? You lie as much as Granholm does, I clearly stated that she promised to turn things around in Michigan and hasnt, shes a liar and maybe you two should get together in January, shes going to have alot of time on her hands then! I am sure she will need someone as diluded as you to keep her spirits up!! And I see that plenty of you have answers out there, its just that the majority of you are wrong! Thats why Sam here is so irritated with me, he cant handle the truth!
I would like to focus on job creation. Exactly how many new jobs has devos created in Michigan over the last four years? Also, how many new jobs have been created since Govener Granhom took office four years ago? So far, I have heard that devos created\saved about 400 jobs between 1993/2002. I recently read that 'devos also said in last week's debate that he has doubled the number of employees to 145 at Windquest'
Uhm, SO?! LOL?! ARE YOU KIDDING ME? WTF? Heck, thats nothing compared to the thousands of NEW jobs being created by ePrize and Google alone.
So to be fair. How many new jobs has devos created over the last four years? How many new jobs have been created while Granholm has been in office?
I was just told that windquest jobs were created over 4 years ago. A quick wiki scan seems to confirm that devos headed windquest between 1989 and 1993. Still, wiki also says that devos returned to The Windquest Group in August 2002.
So, if the jobs were created before 2002 then the results would be:
devos: 0
Governor Granholm: Many thousands
So, if the jobs were created after 2002 then the results would be:
devos: 72.5
Governor Granholm: Many thousands
I just don't get how devos gets to run as some super job maker.
Joshua - please tell me there is more to your master than 72.5 jobs. I want to be assured that devos didn't spend over 20 million dollors in bogus claims. I would like to know that you are not the idiot that you soooo clearly potray yourself to be.
I look forward to your answers.
I find it largely hipocritical to call Jennifer Granholm a liar when you are speaking on behalf of a party that has been notorious for lies and false promises. Using a war to gain personal agenda and profit... this country has been suffering from the lies and false promises of the republican party... President Bush has done nothing with America's best interest, it's all been to benefit his personal interests and agendas... and what have we seen? nothing. why do you think suddenly with in the last 2 years we have seen many many of his cabinet members suddenly leaving... I dont want to see the same thing happen when DeVos gains office... sure he spews a solid plan, he'll just wind up a collosal dissappointment and low on the rating totem pole just like Bush... And its only taken 6 1/2 years for the country to start seeing that! I'd take 4 years of slow coming development than 4 years of condisending lying, political agenda, oh so many false promises. All I see in DeVos is another Bush, only he has the potential of doing the damage that Bush hasn't been able to do on a state level... DeVos even sounds as mechanical and rehearsed, granted a bit more articulate, As Bush does. I just do not have an once of feeling of trust for DeVos... I do not think his intensions are pure... I honestly think he is running because he feels he can win bc he has a well known name and a lot of money. the title of governor would be nice for the Family tree.
Has anyone noticed that the Grand Rapids Press has pulled the '"Betsy DeVos: Michigan workers paid too much" (Grand Rapids Press, April 28, 2004) from their website?
"Many, if not most, of the economic problems in Michigan are a result of high wages and a tax and regulatory structure that makes this state uncompetitive," - (Betsy) DeVos, as Chairperson of Michigan Republican Party.
I'm curious. Joshua? Do you make too much? Do you think that people in Michigan make too much? If devos wins then are you willing to take a pay cut? Do you think people in Michigan should take a pay cut? After all, according to Betsy Devos, our wages are one of the reasons why the michigan economy is so bad. Will you force non-union people into union shops?
Beach, don't you think that there is HUGE difference in being Govenor of a state & being a ceo/owner? It is not the job of a ceo to manage the state of Michigan, it is the resposibility of the Governor. That is like comparing apples to oranges in my eyes! Comical!!
Beach:
DeVos did create a lot of jobs... just happens that most of them are in China.
Judy said:
Beach, don’t you think that there is HUGE difference in being Govenor of a state & being a ceo/owner? It is not the job of a ceo to manage the state of Michigan, it is the resposibility of the Governor. That is like comparing apples to oranges in my eyes! Comical!!
OK... then what good will DeVos's being a CEO\OWNER do if he becomes the Govenor of Michigan...???
Sounds to me like DeVos would be too busy managing the state of Michigan to create all of the jobs he is promising.
Cheap shots??? No one has been taking more cheap shots out here than you have Josh. Saying the Govenor was responsible for the death of that little boy down by Lansing. That was a cheapest of all shots. Plastic surgeons?? Cheap shots.
Granholm for Govenor...
How much do you really not know about DICK?
http://www.metrotimes.com/edit.....sp?id=9712
Very biased one way article....
So Sayeth You
Lacy has the gall to talk about Republicans and Bush??? You boy Clinton used the white house...
[post filtered]
Facts are facts.
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb...../OPINION01
I dont care about your op-ed and for your information it was bill clinton who signed NAFTA into law so save your blame for your looser candidate. She promised to fix the economy in 2w00, she didnt, why cant any of you libs argue that point? You only choose to see and hear what you want to! Well I am here to tell you, you where wrong in 2004 with Kerry and your wrong in 2006 with Granholm!
As I read through here it looks like several people have argued their point with you Joshua. (cut and paste)
You only choose to see and hear what you want to!
Well all you keep saying is that Granholm hasnt fixed this economy, where is your proof in all the bills that she has had passed or has tried to pass that says she hasnt been working on it? you keep saying she lied and hasnt kept her promises... what promises are those exactly? do tell. you not doing too much better. all i am hearing is that democrats are immoral liars who kill babies... whats next? all homosexuals and non-christians are going strait to hell? typical... so what if clinton got a hummer from someone? infidelity is a common trend among politicians, BOTH democrats and republicans. SO what... And BUSH had warnings and literature prior to 911 that the attack was going to happen and what did he do about it? went on vacation for the first 5 months of his presidency and had a grand ole time... Clinton tried to tell the Bush administration about the threat of Osama Bin Laden and was ignored. why? well when your family is tight with the family of a highly dangerous terrorist and their oil, you can see why it was conveniently overlooked. And it think i have every right to diss the Republican party... why so offended you've been doing to the democratic party with your "you libs" and "baby killing"....
I am having a good time debating but you are just getting to be abusive. lets keep this all a civil debate... we all have one thing in common: the Want to get Michigan back on track... let's discuss that rather than chastize and bash each other for their political views.
You know I couldnt sleep, so i went throw an started from the beginning and read the majority of the posts.
It is no secret that the #1 reason for the loss of so many jobs is due to outsourcing by the big three. And I heard people say "well the auto industry should have been prepared" and "this state shouldnt have been so dependant on the auto industry"... Granholm did not tell the Big 3 to send their labor elsewhere and lay off so many... she did not single handedly fire all of our workers... we all need to look at it this way... with Michigan, it wasn't just a dependancy, it was a lifestyle... and not just for thirty years... more like 70 when then assembly line was created... I dont think there was anyone in the country who thought of cars, an item we have grown so dependant on as a country, with out thinking of detroit, the motor city. The Automobile put Michigan on the map. working for Ford or Chrysler or GM became the 'family business'... Granholm was not responsible for the loss of jobs. And I think that Granholm is not only trying to resolve this huge lose by creating jobs, but she is trying to diverify those jobs that will be created... she is trying to get away from our dependancy on the auto industry by bringing companies like Google to this state... it will take more than four years to get an assembly line state accustomed to a knew line of work. Now I am not saying that we all work on the assembly line but growing up in the middle class going to work in a factory was always a definate possbility. and what better one to work for than GM or Oldsmobile or Ford (if you're from west michigan, as i am (which was more dependant on the furniture industry
), we had Herman Miller, Steelecase, etc etc). the object is to get Michigan back to work, but we need to try and find ourselves a new profession... something that can guarantee us longer standing in employment... and that is not an over night operation. it takes time, just like the bulding of our automobile dependant economy, our automobile dependant lifestyle.
I would thank you all to keep the discourse civil. My 13 year old daughter visits this site and I have no interest in maintaining a blog with foul language. Thanks!
G
Meant to say....
GO TIGERS!!!!!
i guess to summarize what i was saying above better, Detroit was the Silicon Valley for automobiles. Making cars was our niche... for a long time. Now we need to find a new niche in order to survive and getting back on an even economic keal with the rest of this country and I see Granholm trying to do that with bringing Google and other major companies to this state... bring new and different fields of work to us and helping us to expand our horizons in the job market.
PS I apologize if i used any foul language. But I am happily surprised that the majority of this debate has been civil, no thanks to a few immature ya-hoos.. but what would discussing politics be with out 'em... Have a great night...
And the Tigers will get them tomorrow night
Michigan is suffering due to failed, nonessential policy decisions by the current administration. Honestly, Gov Granholm is a great politician and an even better law maker. Unfortunately, Michigan needs a business leader. You wouldn’t hire a plumber to paint your house?
The big three are suffering because of extremely high compensation packages for UAW workers. The entire country was in a recession and the UAW still looked to big three and demanded higher compensation. While management was taking loses, the UAW was pressing for more money, it doesn’t take a brain surgeon to figure out what happens next.
Now understand, I am PRO-UNION, but I more PRO JOBS. I am former member of the IBEW, and last I heard Local 58 has over 1500 signed on the books looking for work. The rumor is 10 months before you get a call back to work. 10 months! People are leaving the state. The lay offs of the big three are only part of the problem, with Michigan attracting very little to NO new businesses, there is no need for new construction. Sure Toyota 1 of 6 automakers who were looking for a home to build a plant or and R&D center….1 of 6, where are the other 5!? Indiana, Illinois, Tennessee, not Michigan. Can’t blame anybody but the Governor for missing the boat on that one.
I am not a Republican or a Democrat, I support who will dot he better job, I voted for Granholm last time. But I can’t, in my right mind support her this time, her plan is not working. Taxing small business is not the answer.
The US Economy is driven by small independent business, it makes up the majority of revenue. So taxing this companies based on the number of employees they have or a continued tax based on equipment they own – its crazy as a business owner to think for one second that operating in Michigan is a cost savings. Think of it, the more people you hire, the more tax you pay, the more equipment you buy the more tax you pay – YEARLY! Further, businesses are also taxed on benefits packages. Who would want all that tax – it drives up the cost of doing business, which drives up the costs to consumers. Michigan cannot continue to compete at this level. Common sense!
Wow JT, there is so much drivel in your post. Where do I begin….
"Michigan is suffering due to failed, nonessential policy decisions by the current administration."
Sorry, you just lost all your credibility as an insightful poster. Michigan is suffering for reasons that go above and beyond any one governor. Educate yourself. Don't listen to rhetoric. Do research.
"The lay offs of the big three are only part of the problem, with Michigan attracting very little to NO new businesses, there is no need for new construction."
Apparently, it is you that is paying little to NO attention. Google and ePrize are two easy examples that you can look up. Oh - by the way, I work for a new business in the IT sector. We are doing great! The company was just rated one of the top 100 companies to work for.
"I am PRO-UNION". Again, you are making no sense. Either you are:
1) Pro-Union but are ignorant to the policies that devos has been pushing in the past
2) Not Pro-Union and you know full well that 'right-to-work' laws, that devos supports, weaken unions.
"You wouldn’t hire a plumber to paint your house?"
I would hire one of the top rated governors in the country to be our governor. Good thing for us, our current governor is rated as one of the best. So why would I hire a mediocre business man when we need a governor. devos has only been able to create 72 new jobs over the four years. Heck, if that is your measure of success then you should vote for one of those guys from ePrize. Oh wait, they are too busy creating jobs and making too much of that stuff called money. Hey, wait - I thought devos was spending millions getting people to believe that new job creation wasn't possible in Michigan? Good thing ePrize and Google are not listening to devos.
Hmmm, if the job makers are not listening to devos then why are you?
The following is a quote from devos.
"In order to get 1,000 jobs in Michigan, the governor's view is, "Let's get one company to come here for 1,000 jobs.' My philosophy is, we're going to build an environment where 1,000 companies add a job,"
So, devos is going to get each of the established Michigan companies to hire an employee. That's devos's big plan? What about the companies that decide to pocket the tax savings and not create a new job?
I like Governor Granholm's plan much better. Especially, since she has gotten many companies to come to Michigan already.
Hmmm, maybe this would make a great commercial
Republican gubernatorial candidate Dick DeVos conceded Friday that he can't offer a substantial tax cut to boost Michigan's economy, given the state's depleted tax revenues.
The former Amway president said an alternative tax would substitute for the equipment tax, but his replacement for the Single Business Tax would provide some overall relief.
So, devos is going to create an ‘alternative’ tax that doesn’t penalize businesses. I wonder who he will tax instead?
I know that the economy and jobs are the top issue for most voters... and that is why DeVos has spent millions upon of dollars driving that issue home.
I agree that it is a huge issue... I have three young sons that are taking classes part time and working part time. So I know that diversfying the jobs market is crucial for Michigan.
I also believe we are heading in the right direction. For the most part ... folks on the forum have agreed that agreed that Govenor Granholm is the entirely at fault and that she had to deal with a enormous budget defecit when she took over from John Engler.
Dick DeVos knows business... but there is much more involved in the managing the State of Michigan. That is the part that scares the "heck" out of me. The rest of the package if you will....
I am not willing to risk everything else he has up his sleeves that he will force feed the State of Michigan.
I found this article and thought it was pertinant to the debate at hand:
Since becoming governor, Granholm can claim no major policy victories. Confronted with a Republican-controlled legislature, Granholm has been prevented from raising taxes to fund the liberal social experiments that would excite her base. The Republicans in Lansing have done a pretty good job of forcing Granholm to balance the state's finances by cutting spending. Tired of breaking her campaign promises to Michigan's spending lobby, Granholm made a political bet this year that could come back to haunt her during her reelection campaign in 2006.
Michigan is one of the biggest gambling states in the nation. There are several tribal casinos in northern Michigan. The state relies heavily on a multi-headed state lottery system, and Detroit, the state's major urban center, has three Las Vegas-style casinos. Granholm wanted to solve her budget woes by bringing even more casinos to Michigan. Her ploy was to allow nine horseracing tracks in Michigan to operate slot machines. (Slot machines are the golden goose of the gambling industry, producing upwards of 70 percent of casino profits.) Allowing the horse tracks to run slots would have essentially turned them into mini-casinos, or racinos, as they were dubbed in Michigan.
Granholm's plan to fund her liberal agenda with racino profits met the strong opposition of the deep-pocketed Indian and Detroit casino operators, who did not want any more competition in Michigan's gambling industry. The existing casino powers funded a $20 million ballot campaign to block Granholm's casino-expansion agenda, under the guise of requiring Michigan voters to approve the new racinos by a statewide vote. Not to be outdone, Granholm decided to fight the casinos, thinking her popularity and "star power" would convince Michigan voters that they should turn their state into the Las Vegas of the Midwest. Granholm appeared in slick TV ads imploring voters to save Michigan's schools by voting against the anti-gambling initiative.
This showed remarkable hypocrisy on Granholm's part, along with a heavy dose of political stupidity. Granholm, like most Democrats, is not pro-education. She's pro-teachers' unions. Early in her tenure as governor, she rejected an offer from a philanthropist to donate $200 million to open 15 new charter schools in Detroit, a city with some of the nation's worst schools. Granholm didn't dare cross the state's powerful teachers' unions or the recklessly incompetent Detroit City Council, who attacked the philanthropist as a white suburbanite who didn't understand Detroit. Instead of standing up to the anti-reform forces in her party and doing the right thing for the tens of thousands of Detroit kids who are trapped in a failed school system, she told the philanthropist and his $200 million to go pound salt.
Michigan is a culturally conservative state. There are strong pro-life strains that run through every major region. There is a large blue-collar ethnic population that abhors liberal agenda items like gay marriage. These cultural conservatives were mobilized to turn out in 2004 because of another ballot initiative to protect the traditional definition of marriage. Granholm should have known she'd be swimming upstream. But she figured her "walk-on-water" political skills could overcome any anti-gambling sentiments in Michigan's electorate. She was wrong: On Election Day, 58 percent of Michigan voters rejected Granholm's casino-expansion agenda, handing the governor her first political defeat.
Broken Promises Calendar: No Results from Governor Granholm
PROMISE: “A Granholm-Cherry Administration will demand full public disclosure of the names of those paying for election-time ‘issue ads’” (Blueprint for Michigan, pg. 29, September 2002).
RESULT: As you read this, Granholm’s Democratic Party is spending millions of dollars to run issue ads on her behalf. The donors paying for these ads are secret and the public will never know where this money comes from. Granholm has been silent.
The newspaper editorial board endorsements are in. Dick DeVos has been endorsed by The Detroit News, Grand Rapids Press and the Oakland Press. Jennifer Granholm received the endorsements of the Detroit Free Press, Lansing State Journal and Saginaw News. Granholm’s endorsements seemed to be based on letting her “work her plan”…I guess four years hasn’t been enough, and they’re ready to be “blown away”?!?
In Michigan political circles, the conventional wisdom is that Granholm will be unbeatable in 2006. This is wrong. Michigan is a very resilient state for Republicans in non-presidential years because African-American turnout in Detroit is always lower. Turnout in Detroit makes or breaks Democratic campaigns in Michigan, and Granholm could have a serious problem there in 2006 — especially because there is no love lost between Granholm and Detroit Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick. Granholm strained their relationship further by promoting the racino-expansion agenda, which Kilpatrick viewed as anti-Detroit because Granholm's new out-state casinos would have cut into the revenue Detroit gets from the existing casinos in the city.
Broken Promises Calendar: No Results from Governor Granholm
PROMISE: “Jennifer Granholm will exercise executive leadership to keep a lid on tuition levels.” (Blueprint for Michigan, pg. 5, September 2002)
RESULT: Average tuition to Michigan’s public universities increased from $4,943 to $6,874 while the Governor has been in office. It sure would have been nice if the Governor had kept this promise. (House Fiscal Agency, 2006)
PROMISE: “Make our roads last longer.” (Blueprint for Michigan, pg. 78, September 2002)
RESULT: Promises do not make roads last longer. In fact, a 2006 Auditor General report showed that the warranty program designed to increase road durability lacked “proper tracking, oversight and documentation” under the Granholm Administration. Michigan continues to have some of the worst roads in the nation.
PROMISE: "Before changing tax system, cut all waste, fraud and financial abuse in state government.” (Detroit Free Press, 5/28/02)
RESULT: Maybe the SBT is still around because the Governor was unable to eliminate waste in state government. Whatever the excuse, the reality remains: In the last two years alone, the Auditor General has identified over $140 Million in wasteful government spending. (Office of the Auditor General, Full Reports, 2004-2006)
PROMISE: “Doubling the number of Michigan college graduates over the next 10 years, making Michigan the national leader in producing college graduates”.
RESULT: We are not even close. Cutting higher education funding by over $200 million and making tuition more expensive is not a good way to double the number of college graduates
PROMISE: “Jennifer Granholm will recombine the Departments of Natural Resources and Environmental Quality.” (Blueprint for Michigan, pg. 59, September 2002).
RESULT: All Governor Granholm had to do was issue an executive order for this to happen. She made a promise, and once again chose not to keep it.
Is that enough or should I continue with all of her broken promises?
Here are Granholms promises in 2002:
Candidates were asked to summarize their backgrounds in 75 words and were allotted 75 words to answer each question. If the candidate did not reply by the required date for publication, the words "Did not respond in time for publication" appear under the candidate's name.
QUESTION 1
What would you do to stimulate Michigan's economy?
QUESTION 2
What measures do you support to foster better care for those with mental problems?
QUESTION 3
What measures do you support to assure the best education for Michigan's children?
JENNIFER M. GRANHOLM, Democrat
Elected Attorney General, 1998, with key priorities in child protection, consumer and environmental protection, high tech crime prevention, senior citizen safety. Established Mentoring Initiative to provide stable adult mentor for children who had light brush with justice sys-tem and Peace on the Playground to help children solve problems without violence. Graduate of University of California/Berkley and Harvard Law. Federal Prosecutor for U.S. Attorney with 98% conviction rate. Wayne County Corporation Counsel, 1994-1998.
1. I will fight for Michigan's families by ensuring a vibrant, diverse economy. My Council of Economic Advisors will help plan a Michigan recovery for the entire state, including a Technology Tri-Corridor for automotive technology to utilize the tremendous resources we already have. I will bring training and retraining to Michigan's workers for new jobs and industries through three Regional Skills Centers. Finally, I will champion small business by providing access to capital and management expertise.
2. Michigan's complex, bureaucratic mental health system must create accessible, user-friendly services for consumers and their families, including an ombudsman to help navigate the system. We must move toward a Michigan-specific parity in terms of insurance, just as so many other states have done. Prevention and after-care programs are critical to keep people productive and out of prison. Finally, we must once again listen to those in the system and their families for direction.
3. Education is my first budget and policy priority. We need smaller class sizes, expanded pre-school, readiness and remedial programs and parental involvement pro-grams. A school bond loan fund is necessary to rebuild and modernize our buildings. Teacher recruitment(including financial incentives), retention and training are vital for our students. Finally we must once again allow educators, parents and students to have a voice in government, and above all, we must champion our pub-lic schools.
One year later after being elected this is what Granhom did for education:
GRANHOLM TO CUT SCHOOL FUNDING
----------------------------------------------------------------
LANSING, Mich. – After an emergency state budget meeting, Gov.
Jennifer Granholm has announced that she plans to cut over $130
million from the state's $12.7 billion school-aid budget.
This move would reduce the $6,700 per-student foundation grant by
about $56. "I think the governor did the right thing by going
after the sacred cow of state education spending," former Deputy
Director of Taxation Gary Wolfram told the South Bend Tribune.
"We know intuitively if you're spending $6,627 per pupil versus
$6,700, it should not affect the quality of the education in that
classroom."
During her campaign, Granholm made repeated promises not to
decrease school spending. However, the current economic climate
has forced the state to make cuts in all areas, including
education. "What has created the shortfall in the School Aid Fund
is the economy, not our valiant attempts to keep our promise to
Michigan's students and their parents," explained state Sen. Ron
Jelinek, chairman of the Senate Appropriations Subcommittee on K-
12 Education.
_______
SOURCES:
Detroit Free Press, "Schools' funding may face state chopping
block," Jan. 15, 2003
http://www.freep.com/news/educ.....030115.htm
South Bend Tribune, "Ideas vary on curing budget ills,"
Jan. 20, 2003
http://www.southbendtribune.co.....curing.sto
Mackinac Center for Public Policy, "The Six Habits of Fiscally
Responsible Public School Districts," December 2002
http://www.mackinac.org/4891
After promising not to reduce school funding, the very month she got into office she started chopping and education was on the top of her list.
More good News!!!!!
I wanted to share this with all of you!!!
Survey USA shows slide in Gov. Granholm's approval rating
Governor Jennifer Granholm
Increase Type Size
Decrease Type Size
Stanton Tang
Created: 10/19/2006 1:24:34 PM
Updated: 10/19/2006 2:15:50 PM
Our exclusive WZZM 13 Survey USA poll shows that Governor Granholm's approval rating dropped for a third straight month.
The October 16th survey found that only 39% of the 600 adults polled, approved of Granholm's performance. 58% of the survey disapproved of her performance.
Over the last three months, Granholm's approval rating dropped four percentage points. At the same time, her disapproval rating gained five points.
Gov. Granholm Approval Rating:August 14 September 18 October 16
43% 42% 39%
Gov. Granholm Disapproval Rating:
August 14 September 18 October 16
53% 56% 58%
Things are looking up, keep hope alive for Granholms reelection!!!
How many Michigan citizens would be willing to eliminate government jobs to overseas employees if it saved the taxpayers money ??. (Think about that)Everyone of you people have received a call from an overseas person either soliciting or inquiring. EVERY big company is doing it...
Why does anyone think that Devos would run the state of Michigan any different than his own family business( a money maker). Do you people really think he has nothing better to do with his time other than to help all of us poor saps in Michigan, and oh yea (REAL WORLD) he might just put some more money in his coffer in the process(like he needs it). As if that does'nt happen day in and day out in all fascits of life and government and media yeah media.
Boy, now would'nt that of been a novel idea(Amway overseas)if the Big 3,Union and our government would have got togeather and put some plants up overseas at the same time Honda and Toyota were building plants here in the U.S. to avoid shipping tarifs into the U.S. PEOPLE WAKE UP !!!!! This is truly a global economy ( thanks to technology and media)which by the way is a good thing. So we as Americans better wake up real quick and try to control it before some other country does it for us. God Bless America the only land of opportunity. I'll get off my soap box now. Have a great day because we can choose to do so.
P.S. By the way maybe some of you people should try getting in front of a live TV camera with millions watching and see how easy it is at first, remember people in glass houses should'nt throw stones.
Dick DeVos sending Michigan jobs overseas? Money making family business? Soap box? I think I feel a song coming on!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGWgXnA-4Jo
I wish Jim Leyland really was running for Governor...sigh. I don't think I can brink myself to vote for DeVos, but I don't want to vote for Granholm either, and I don't want to waste my vote.
This is just the pits, where is a candidate that makes you want to vote for them?
I think Granholm will win, and we will have 4 more years of same old while this state sinks more and more into the economic slimepit.
I am not usually this negative, but it seems to me we are going to get the shaft no matter who gets the job.
Joshua... thats all good and all but let me remind you that WZZM 13 is based out of Grand Rapids... you can't say that there isnt a bias 1) bc DeVos is from GR and 2) West Michigan, particularly Kent and Ottawa County's, are heavily republican counties... again biased. BUT i will give you credit for actually researching and getting info to back up your oh-so-typical "She didnt keep her promises, therefore she lied and that's all i have" spiel.
Lacy, its better than I am not going to vote for Devos because he made millions on his own. And once again, you cant refute what I have proven! If the fact that the economy has gotten worse and all of her original promises where nothing more than lies wont change your mind, nothing will. See you at the polls!
Joshua says - "going to vote for Devos because he made millions on his own. And once again, you cant refute what I have proven!"
Joshua, you must really enjoy proving your ignorance. devos inherited his millions - look it up.
Fortunately for devos, as long as you remain ignorant the more likely he will get into office.
While being stupid must be aweful, being forced to live with stupid people is far worse.
Beach, if that is how you spell it, is that the best you can come up with? What are we in grade school, you gotta call people names. That is just another reason I am not a Democrat, all you can do is point fingers and make stuff up, you havent had an original thought on any of your postings thus far. Good luck comming up with something else smart to say. I am sure your wit will astound everyone!
Joshua - YOU ARE THE ONE THAT POSTED “going to vote for Devos because he made millions on his own. And once again, you cant refute what I have proven!” Ergo – Joshua - YOU ARE IGNORANT! Slam dunk! Heck, even my dog can refute you. (Since your ignorance appears to be staggering, 'Ergo' means 'therefore' or 'consequently'. Let me know if you need me to define those words too)
By the way, you never answered my questions from above. I'll re-post them for ya.
Just how many jobs did devos create over the last 4 years? Heh heh, you want to do some research? Go research that then. Is the number of jobs that devos created 0 or 72.5? The word is that these are mostly temp jobs. So, while you are learning how to do research, find out how many of these jobs were temp or part time.
Also, you owe us:
“Many, if not most, of the economic problems in Michigan are a result of high wages and a tax and regulatory structure that makes this state uncompetitive,” - (Betsy) DeVos, as Chairperson of Michigan Republican Party."
"I’m curious. Joshua? Do you make too much? Do you think that people in Michigan make too much? If devos wins then are you willing to take a pay cut? Do you think people in Michigan should take a pay cut? After all, according to Betsy Devos, our wages are one of the reasons why the michigan economy is so bad. Will you force non-union people into union shops?"
"That is just another reason I am not a Democrat, all you can do is point fingers and make stuff up"
Just to be clear - I'm a Republican.
And you are still an idiot.
I apologize for my previous post. After reading it, I noticed that the comment was ambiguous. So, I'm re-posting it in order to clarify. (for Joshua, 'ambiguous' means, in this case, 'open to two or more interpretations'. Let me know if you need 'interpretation' defined for you too.)
The previous post should have read something like:
Joshua said, “That is just another reason I am not a Democrat, all you can do is point fingers and make stuff up”
Just to be clear - I’m a Republican.
And, Joshua, you are still an idiot.
Wow, you are soo smart Beach!! I awe in your presence. Get over yourself, I wonder when you walk in a room can your head fit through the door? To answeryour question: Devos was not running a government, he was running a buisness! You cannot compare the two (who is the idiot?????), and with the buisness climate in this state to add one job let alone 72.5 is pretty damn good!
Let me continue to educate you Beach, it is not the responsabitlity of a CEO of a company to fix a states economy, so to blame him for the economy is retarded, I am sure you can understand that word, you have been hearing it all of your life. A CEO does what is best for his company, too keep it profitable and growing, even in the joke of an economy your precious Granholm has made over the last four years.
“Many, if not most, of the economic problems in Michigan are a result of high wages and a tax and regulatory structure that makes this state uncompetitive,” - (Betsy) DeVos, as Chairperson of Michigan Republican Party.”
First of all Beach, Betsy Devos is'nt running for governor! Secondly she is right, unfair taxes and Unions that demand too much for their employees is a major problem in this state. Are you trying to tell me and that the Governor of a state sets the wages that a company pays its employees?(Once again you continue to astound me with your infinate ignorance), what a governor can do is fix the tax problems in this state and create a buisness friendly environment that attracts new buisness and helps the buisnesses that have been able to keep afloat while Granholm has been asleep at the wheel.
Think before you ask questions Beach, you are making this too easy for me.
Joshua, you still didnt answer Beach's question? And, you have been doing nothing other than 'name-calling' with your self-righteous, condiscending attitude. Just like a republican. You're always right and anyone who disagrees is stupid and beneath you... (sorry Beach, I'm just using generalizations just as Joshua has been)...
Granholm campaigned. She proposed her planS. She has been unable to accomplish her plan due to set backs and trying to clean up ruins from the Mis-Management of Engler (take that as blaming othera, if you will. But sory to say, JOshua, its a fact). She knew it was going to take a while to undue what was done (you have to be completely naive to think that it would take overnight). She was willing to take the time to make a difference... and you're right, DeVos is a Business man, not a politician. He has no idea how to run a state. ESPECIALLY, one that is so blue-collar as Michigan when he was born with a silver spoon.
Four years is a little longer than overnight!(wake up and smell the truth) And your right making Generalizations about Republicans puts you in the same catagory as me and Beach! So if Devos a buisnessman isnt right to be a Governor, what makes you think that a Lawyer is, you amaze me with your leaping logic! Continue to make excuses, well see how far it takes you! Unlike you I refuse to discriminate someone because they have had a good life or because they have had a family that has done well for themselves. Cutting down people because they are successful is a real bright campaign strategy. Keep it up, you are making my case for me. I have answered all the questions you have thrown at me and I can take your infantile insults, comming from a person of your caliber it means nothing to me. Get a clue and come back when you can think for yourself!
You're right about one thing (and that's about all), Joshua, a State Governor doesn't set wages...and ALSO doesn't design and sell cars! The failings of the people who DO design and sell cars in this state, coupled with a rush of manufacturing to low wage countries, is what is largely responsible for the trouble in Michigan's economy. The same reasons explain why Michigan also lost hundreds of thousands of manufacturing jobs during the REPUBLICAN Engler administration.....or was HE anti-business and "asleep at the wheel" too?
Wages are set by MUTUAL agreement of employer and employee, so exactly what was Betsy DeVos whining about? Answer: as Michigan GOP chairwoman she was beating the campaign drum, NOT providing insightful analysis. Perhaps she'd be happier if Michigan workers were paid the same as Devos's Chinese workers, and it's all very easy for an extremely wealthy and privileged woman to say that the peons make too much money for their own good.
Your consistant harping that Michigans problems are because of taxes is pretty ignorant (see Pete's post 164, click the link, and READ the report), and your assertions that Granholm is pro-SBT are so false one can scarcely avoid calling them lies. She has consistantly spoken out against SBT as it now exists, and only opposed efforts to kill it when they didn't address the other half of the issue: what replaces SBT's revenue to the state? You won't get an answer from your boy Dick on this question, even now. He's avoiding it because there are no easy, soundbite-friendly answers. Or maybe he hasn't got a clue... Granholm has shown the guts that Dick appears to lack on this issue.
While I'm on the subject of Single Business Tax, here's a question for you: How is it that in THREE TERMS as Michigan Governor, John Engler did not kill this supposed business destroyer? He had the legislature in his pocket during his last two terms, presumably had the philosophic bent to do so, yet...nada! What up???
I'm glad to read in your post above that you accept the fact that Dick Devos only created 72.5 jobs. Not very impressive for a supposedly astute businessman. To quote (again) a pyramid-scheme soap salesman: "We can do better". Michigan business owners have created many, many new jobs...perhaps the truely successful ones are a little too busy to run for Governor
Running the State of Michigan is NOT like running a business. When revenue (profit) to a State declines, one can't just take jobs offshore or invent another level of distributors to plump up income.
There is some question whether DeVos actually IS a successful businessman (72.5 jobs?!?). He's certainly a RICH one, but even a brown-nose syncophant like you will have to admit he got a head start that few have ever experienced. I think the phrase is "Born on third base and thought he hit a triple".
As I've said before, I'm not entirely pleased with Granholm, but Dick is hardly a desireable alternative. I'm giving her 4 more years.
Ok Braniac, Engler is not on the ballot so you can stop your whining about what her did, now that thats done with You dems seem to think that the only buisness that Michigan has is automotive???? WRONG!!! So to blame Engler ahe And the auto industry over and over is getting a little old, you need to find some new material! As for Devos, adding 70 jobs is a better record than loosing a job every 20 minuites like your girl Jenny! I think others have made this point but I will repeat it becasue it seems some of you are a little dense and it hasnt sunk in, you cannot compare a single buisness to a State, you are reaching here and you know it. At least he kept his buisness here, despite Jennys economic plans or lack their of!
You can spin Jennifer Granholms last four years any way you want it but it still stinks and is full of as much crap as it was when she became governor!
You are right Taxes are just part of the problem, Jennifer Granholm and people like you are the rest of the problem and until we deal with you, Michigan will be last in the nation. So What up????????
So not only are you an ignorant idiot – you are naive too. Betsy devos is more than just the wife of dick devos. She is a very, very active participant in Michigan and National politics. A vote for dick devos is a vote for dick and betsy devos. Note in one of the following articles - "She resigned in February 2000 over a public disagreement with then-Gov. John Engler about how the Michigan GOP should be run." If dick is voted in as governor then it will be other people that will be forced to resign. Betsy devos would become very much like a dick cheney of michigan.
Here are some of betsy's political highlights:
- Michigan Republican Party chairwoman, 1996-2000 and 2003-05;
- Head of the Great Lakes Education Project, 2001-02;
- Republican National Committee member, 1992-2000;
- GOP national committeewoman for Michigan, 1992-1997;
- Chair, Spence Abraham for U.S. Senate Committee, 1994;
- Board member, American Council of Young Political Leaders, 1995 to present;
- Vice chairwoman, Bush/Quayle State Steering Committee, 1992;
- John Engler for Gov. Committee, 1990;
- Delegate or alternate delegate to GOP national conventions, 1984, 1988, 1992 and 1996;
- Former chair of the Kent County and 5th District Republican committees.
- Co-chairwoman with her husband of the Education Freedom Fund, a Michigan foundation that provides scholarships for low-income children to attend private schools.
Here are some snippets from articles:
"There's little doubt that, before the 2006 gubernatorial campaign, more people in Michigan knew of Betsy DeVos than of her husband, Republican candidate Dick DeVos."
"She spent almost four years in the post her first time around, when she reorganized the party and helped Republicans get their biggest hold on state government in half a century."
"She resigned in February 2000 over a public disagreement with then-Gov. John Engler about how the Michigan GOP should be run. She wanted the party to back a movement being led by her husband to get a measure supporting school vouchers on the state ballot. Engler didn't. So she stepped down."
Source: http://www.mlive.com/newsflash.....mibusiness
“Betsy is the treasurer of an Ann Arbor based religious right agency called the Acton Institute, which opposed the Kyoto treaties on global warming, and has a recent record of attacking opponents of global warming.”
Source: http://www.politicalcortex.com...../21371/072
“Dick Devos and his wife, Betsy, have donated more than $1 million to promote vouchers, charter schools and school choice and groups that support those efforts.”
“They've also set up political action committees in Michigan and Virginia that have funneled millions of dollars more to candidates in Michigan and other states who hold the same views.”
"Betsy DeVos urges agenda of change", Tuesday, October 24, 2006 By Chris Meehan
http://www.mlive.com/news/kzga.....l&coll
Betsy DeVos Address to Michigan Republican Party Convention in Grand Rapids
"In addition to simply funding the far right, Dick and Betsy DeVos are personally involved with several organizations of the far right, most often through board appointments. While serving on the boards of several organizations, the couple has often generously funded these organizations through their Dick and Betsy DeVos Foundation. An example is the Grand Rapids-based Acton Institute, a rightwing think-tank that seeks to blend free-market ideology with religion."
Source: http://www.mediamouse.org/features/100506dick_.php
Joshua
Since you are an ignorant idiot, here some more information for you. The following exerpt is from the first debate.
Note: While we can help you be less ignorant - only you can do something about being an idiot.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Debate Moderator:
Candidates we have 2 minutes left. Mr. DeVos, on a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being the most, when it comes to making critical decisions, how much influence will your spouse have in making that decision, sir?
Dick Devos:
Critical decisions with regard to politics, I have great respect for my wife's ability in that area, and I love my wife very, very much. As governor...
Moderator:
So, that's a 10?
Dick Devos:
As governor, and at the process of being governor, I will seek the advice of those who are very much involved with government and issues of government and will rely on their advice and council. I'll surround myself with great people.
Moderator:
But, could I try to refine that answer please sir. On a scale of 1 to 10, how important is her [Betsy's] input on making critical decisions?
Dick Devos:
My wife is a great person and very wise, and offers me wise council, and so I take her advice very, very much. Her interest however tends to be in politics less... than... more than in governing. She's been a wonderful counselor for this political season."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Clearly, betsy devos will not be home baking cookies.
More name calling, simple minded arnt you? Is that the best you can come up with, that he values his wifes opinion? What man wouldnt say that? That is just common sense. You are really reaching here Beach! Why dont you come up with a point that actually has some substance. Your stupidity never ceases to amaze me. Get a clue and come back when you have something intellegent to add to this conversation.
"Betsy devos would become very much like a dick cheney of michigan"
Nice, Beach...I like it: The Princess of Darkness".. LOL
Joshua...you've pretty much yapped yourself into irrelevance here. I'm hoping some DeVos people who can at least make sense and get beyond talk-radio yammering will show up here to chat. Hint: listening to Rush and Sean does NOT make up for a lack of education and/or intelligence. They're professional entertainers. It only makes you look MORE silly when you hit the wall...and you're never very far away from it.
So..I know John Engler is not running for office here...but I thought as long as you were holding Governorsto a particular standard, you might be able to explain how a three term Republican Governor, who is such a good friend of business that he now heads the National Assn. of Manufacturers, did not consider the SBT enough of a hindrance to business to include it's elimination in his strategy to grow the economy of the state he led for 12 YEARS.
What do you know that John Engler did not? You're running on empty here, pal, and here comes that wall again.
Unfortunatly I wasnt here in Michigan for Engler, I was serving my country so idiots liek you can have the right to spew your hate. But regardless, Engler is not in this election, stop making excusues for Granholm and stick to the candidates at hand. The buck should stop at the governors desk, unless your a democrat and you can blame everyone else. This is a simple fact that you cannot wrap your thick skull around and probably never will. She hasnt produced for Michigan and wont if she has four more years, this isnt rocket science but it sure has your panties in a bunch. Dont hate, I am sure George Soros will save Air America and your 10 listners can go on grasping for hope!
Well...you served your country. Thank you very much.
Did you serve for the entire 12 years of the Engler administration, and, were you a Michigan resident during that time? I think everyone I know who's currently or recently in the armed forces still has a home, hometown, and can vote in local elections. Where were you?
It would be SO disappointing to find out that while you were "serving my country" you were ignoring an equally important calling: casting an informed vote.
It's my guess (?) you know nothing of the distant (4 whole years ago) past because you weren't a Michigan resident, and perhaps you aren't even one now...who knows? In any case, you're shockingly (but not surprisingly) ignorant of the very recent political history of our great state. You admit as much by pathetically trying to use "serving my country" as an excuse for not knowing the simple,easily known, truth. This is sometimes called "stepping on your own tail".
Of course, I may be wrong about you. Perhaps you're just suffering from a bout of Amnesia brought on by questions you can't answer, complicated by a bad case of political hypocrisy and/or ignorance. The latter complication would also explain your affection for people who think you, as a Michigan peon, are causing trouble by making too much money.
It's a shame you apparently didn't take advantage of the educational opportunities available to veterans, though. Maybe Mr. DeVos will spring for a couple years of remedial Political Science after the election. Of course, if you're paid by the word, you can probably spring for a whole 4 years. Governor Granholm has a couple proposals that might help you with that tuition.
Whoops! Look out..here comes that wall again.
Cris, you have proven yourself a very small person, I have invited you to talk the issues and all you can do is talk down to me, you dont even know me. I am done with you and your insults, this is why your party has been out of power in Washington for soo long, you lack ideas and are filled with hate. Its sad really, grow up and come back when you have something coherent and relavent to talk about. Until then have a nice day.
Nice... Joshua... why dont you just copy and paste that reply from now to save you the trouble of typin, both Beach and Chris have had solid facts and point to at least back their arguments up. What have you had? "quit picking on me, you libs! Granholm is a liar! And yet I have no real facts to substantialize that comment!"... And you have been just as condescending as you make Chris out to be to you. Please do us all a favor and not post until you can soldify your argument with reasonable facts and a less 'holier than thou' attitude... we're all trying to have a discussion, it shouldnt be a name calling contest.. but its become one. and I'm sure you're not going to take any of that blame for starting either, are Joshua? no...
Cris, keep it coming. Let's see if Joshua is really done with you.
Somehow I think he will have "the same thing to say" again and again. He has been good for some laughs though.
LACY,
re:She proposed her planS. She has been unable to accomplish her plan due to set backs and trying to clean up ruins from the Mis-Management of Engler (take that as blaming othera, if you will. But sory to say, JOshua, its a fact). She knew it was going to take a while to undue what was done (you have to be completely naive to think that it would take overnight)
YOUR ARGUMENTS FOR GRANHOLM ARE DOING HER NO FAVORS & MAKING YOU LOOK ONCE AGAIN LIKE YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. IF SHE WAS SO UP ON HOW LONG IT WOULD TAKE TO "UNDO" WHAT ENGLER DID, WHY BOTHER MAKING THE EMPTY PROMISES?
A LAWYER OR A BUSINESS MAN...HMMM...
YOU ALSO SEEM TO HAVE SOME DEEP RESENTMENT TOWARDS PEOPLE BORN WITH MONEY. JEALOUSY WON'T GET YOU FAR, ENJOY WHAT YOU DO HAVE!
BEACH,
ONCE AGAIN YOU ARE TRYING TO COMPARE APPLES TO ORANGES TO BANANAS. I WILL REPEAT AGAIN FOR YOU SO MAYBE YOU CAN ABSORB IT THIS TIME. OR MAYBE WE WILL LOOK AT IT THIS WAY.
HOW MANY JOBS DID GRANHOLM, BEFORE BECOMING GOVERNOR ADD TO THE STATE OF MICHIGAN?????? BEFORE????
DEVOS HAS BEEN A CEO/OWNER OF A COMPANY. HE HAS NOT BEEN WORKING FOR OUR STATE. HE IS DOING A JOB, JUST LIKE YOU & I DO. I, MYSELF DO NOT CREATE JOBS FOR MICHIGAN, I LOOK OUT FOR MY SMALL BUSINESS & DO ALL THAT I CAN TO KEEP IT GOING & KEEP MAKING A PROFIT. THAT IS WHAT YOU DO IN A JOB. UNLESS YOU ARE GOVERNOR GRANHOLM. SHE IS SADLY LACKING.
DO YOU GET IT NOW....
APPLES TO ORANGES!
Judy asks, “How many jobs did Governor Granholm make before she was the Governor?????? Before????”
Answer: None, zip, zilch, nada. That’s because before she became Governor, she was busy SERVING the people of Michigan. Yes, she even served and fought for Judy and Joshua too.
“Granholm was elected Michigan Attorney General in 1998, the first female to hold that position, serving for four years (1999-2002), focusing on protecting citizens and consumers, and establishing Michigan's first HighTech Crime Unit. After the September 11, 2001 attacks, Granholm directed state agencies to work with lawmakers in keeping the fight against terrorism within the powers of the state. She also imposed a regulation on gasoline dealers to keep them from raising prices dramatically, something which occurred massively across Michigan immediately following the attacks.” – Source: wikipidia
While then Michigan Attorney General Granholm was serving Michigan, dick devos was building a business and cutting Michigan jobs:
“In 2000, DeVos oversaw a corporate restructuring that created Alticor, the new parent company of predecessor Amway, as well as subsidiary companies Access Business Group and Quixtar. Under DeVos, Alticor expanded operations to more than 50 countries and territories on six continents. Alticor cut over 1,300 Michigan jobs during this restructuring, although more then 400 of them were from buy outs and early retirement.” - Source: wikipidia
Apples to Oranges
Devos is a business man. HE is the apple that is pretending to be an orange. He will run the state like a business. But Michigan is not a business. Michigan is an economy. Michigan is people with hopes and dreams. These are the same people that Amway preyed upon in order to make profits for the devos family. If you are so impressed with devos as a business man then go sell amway.
We need a real Governor. Fortunately, we already have one of the best Governors in the union. As a Republican, I am glad to see her balancing the budget and rebuilding our economy. Heck, I think Granholm is a better Republican than most Republicans. We (yes even Judy and Joshua) need Governor Granholm.
I noted the following in a previous post:
“Many, if not most, of the economic problems in Michigan are a result of high wages and a tax and regulatory structure that makes this state uncompetitive,” - (Betsy) DeVos, as Chairperson of Michigan Republican Party.”
Joshua replied, "she is right, unfair taxes and Unions that demand too much for their employees is a major problem in this state. Are you trying to tell me and that the Governor of a state sets the wages that a company pays its employees?(Once again you continue to astound me with your infinate ignorance)"
The first problem with Joshua’s response is:
“Are you trying to tell me and that the Governor of a state sets the wages that a company pays its employees?(Once again you continue to astound me with your infinate ignorance)"
Um, yeah! A governor does have state executive branch power to set the minimum wage in Michigan. Since the rest of us already know about the minimum wage then this must be yet another shining example of YOUR infinite ignorance.
The second problem with Joshua's reply is that betsy devos was not talking specifically about unions. She said 'high wages ... makes this state uncompetitive'. That includes everyone in Michigan; union, non-union, white collar, blue collar, you, and me.
So, Joshua:
Do you make too much?
Do you think that people in Michigan make too much?
If devos wins then are you willing to take a pay cut?
Do you think people in Michigan should take a pay cut? After all, according to Betsy Devos, our high wages are one of the reasons why the Michigan economy is so bad.
Will you support non-union people into union shops?
To make it easier on you, I’ll answer the questions first.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Do I make too much?
No!
Do I think that people in Michigan make too much?
No!
If devos wins then am I willing to take a pay cut?
Heck no!
Do I think people in Michigan should take a pay cut? After all, according to Betsy Devos, our high wages are one of the reasons why the Michigan economy is so bad.
No!
Will I support non-union people into union shops?
No!
-------------------------------------------------------------
Your turn Joshua. Judy please feel free to answer the questions too.
I’m just curious what people think.
Devos has said that he would eliminate two taxes that businesses are currently paying – SBT and private property. Devos has recently conceded that the Michigan Budget cannot afford any large cuts.
Analysts estimate that the elimination of both taxes will leave more than a 3 billion dollar deficit in the budget. Devos has said that there will be an ‘alternative’ tax but he wont say what it is. My question for people is how will devos replace 3 billion dollars without charging businesses?
Will a devos administration (with the help of a republican majority legislature):
A) Increase the sales tax
B) Increase your income tax
C) Increase your license fees (drivers, fishing, boating, etc)
D) Increase deficit spending
this is a fact for Beach:
Granholm has proposed, supported, and signed over 2 Billion in new taxes.
Here are 10 good reasons not to believe Granholm:
1)Granholm promised to cut the states General fund Budget by up to 5% through reductions in administration and overhead costs for an estimated savings of $450 Million. (Blueprint for michigan pg 26, September 2002)
Since 2003 Granholm has increased the General fund budget by 4.8%, or $422 Million dollars (Ofiice of state budget)
2)"A Granholm - Cherry administration will revise the tax poicies so that farmers and growers are not forced to break up and sell family farms"
(Blueprint for Michigan, pg 55 September 2002)
The Granholm administration has testified against lowering property taxes to preserve farmland. Even more so she proposed reenstating the estate tax which would make it harder for farmers to pass their farms on to their children which would also preserve farmland. (HB 4257 of 2005, Lansing state Journal 2/13/04)
3)"Secure our cities against terrorist attack" (Blueprint for Michigan, pg 74 September 2002)
Jus this year Detroit was ranked least prepared for natuaral or man made disaster in a report of 10 high risk urban areas. Detroit recieved a score of 27% While Miami, New York, DC, and Boston recieved scores of more than 75%.
(Readers Digest, 2006)
4)"Before changing the tax system, I will cut all waste, fraud, and financial abuse in state Geovernment"
Maybe the SBT is still around because the governor was unable to cut waste in government. Whatever the excuse, the reality remains: In the last two years the Auditor General has identified over $140 Million dollars in wasteful government spending. (Office of the Auditor Generar, Full reports 2004-2006)
5) “Jennifer Granholm will challenge Michigan business and
citizens to achieve a 40% recycling rate within 5 years, up from
today’s estimated rate of 25%.” (Blueprint for Michigan, pg. 58,
September 2002)
RESULT: The fact is, Michigan’s recycling rate has gotten worse,
going down from 25% to 20% while Granholm has been in office.
(Michigan Recycling Network, 4/20/06)
6)"A Granholm-Cherry Administration will make education its top priority." (Blueprint for Michigan, pg. 4, September 2002)
Dropout rates are up. Test scores are down. Tuition has skyrockedted. Funding for higher education has been slashed. The Granholm record on education pretty well speaks for itself.
7)"Allow Public Schools to apply for MEGA grants to help teachers keep pace with new technologies." (MEA Voice, October 2001)
The Governor made no steps to accomplish this promise - and for good reason: It doesn't make any sense. MEGA grants give Single Business Tax (SBT) Credits to businesses. Since schools do not pay the SBT, they can't get the credit. One must wonder why this promise was made.
8)" A Granholm-Cherry Adminstartion will provide financial incentives in order to retain certified and state-endorsed teachers" (Blueprint for Michigan, pg. 9, September 2002)
No financial incentives have been enacted by Granholm to retain certified and state-endorsed teachers. Not even an apple for good teachers.
9)Granholm Broken Promise #30: "I will oppose with all the vigor I possess any unilateral scheme to market, bottle, trade, or give away Great Lakes water to anyone, anywhere, anytime." (Detroit News, 3/3/02)
Governor Granholm turned around and signed legislation that expressly allows the sale of bottled water in Michigan. (SB850-852, SB 854, SB 857 of 2006)
10)Question for Michigan Taxpayers… Michigan Taxes are paying for T.V. Ads to ask Companies to move to Michigan. This sounds good, except the T.V. Ads are running in Michigan??? Why would Governor Granholm advertise in Michigan when the Companies we are looking for are not in Michigan??? IT SURE SOUNDS LIKE TAXPAYER MONEY IS PROMOTING GOVERNOR GRANHOLM’S RE-ELECTION???
Devos has a plan to replace the SBT
1)Replace the majority of the revenue with a broad based buisness tax. Like other states, it will be centered on buisness profits and gross receipts. Simple and fair, if you make more, you will pay more.
2)Cut non-essential spending. Unlike Granholm, a Devos administration will conduct a thourough review of non-essential government activicties and will eliminate wasteful and unnescissary spending.
3)Protect critical State Services. By not allowing schools, police protection, health care, and other essential programs to be harmed. (Unlike Granholm)
4)Create jobs. By eliminating the SBT, we will create jobs. These jobs will help to replace the revenue lost by the SBT.
Source: http://www.devosforgovernor.co.....ndPlan.pdf
I have read through this entire conversation. I have stated that I am an Independent (I a moderate,a little to the left of center on most issues except business, a little to the right of center on business). I can truly go either way when I vote, although I have mostly voted Republican due to my Conservative leanings in business, until Bush made me regret voting for him the first time. Then, I not only voted for Kerry I helped campaign for him (I still think he would have done a good job).
Be that as it may, although my mind is not made up yet, I can assure you that I will vote, and I will vote either for DeVos or Granholm because I do not want to waste my vote, but I may not know which one it will be till I actually cast my vote. Usually my mind is made up by now, not this time. I though I would vote for DeVos but I am not convinced he is going to do a better job than Granholm, and I don't expect a really good job from either one of them.
To be very honest, I am disappointed there is not a better Republican candidate. This is because I do believe the business climate has to be more business-friendly if this state expects to attract new business.
One of my biggest gripes with Granholm is how she blames instead of taking responsibility and getting things done. You may say that is all Joshua can say, but I can tell you that it is a huge point to me and other Independents that I know, so I would not blow that off so much if you want your candidate to win.
Although Jennifer seems likable enough, I think she should have taken some radical steps by now to help fix this states' financial woes, including cutting state government...ouch, I said it, but it truly needs to be done.
I saw first hand the corruption and waste in Detroit city government. Meanwhile, they can't even afford to tear down or fix up the ugly hulks of the depressing abandoned buildings all (of which there are way too many) for the Super Bowl. Let's face it, Engler totally screwed things up (no I wasn't here, I didn't move here until 1997, but I did bother to look into it), and Granholm did not have the balls to do enough to really start fixing it. Then, I speak to my Democratic friends who give their speech about Granholm making her sound like a victim because of Engler, and that completely turns me off. Stop whining and DO something lady!
I have a very bad opinion of the Detroit City government, and the way Granholm praises Kilpatric also turns my stomach.
As for Betsy DeVos, I thought that comment of hers about Michiganders making too much money was elitist, snobby, and insensitive. I thought it when she said it, and I still feel the same. However, I agree with Joshua, if I vote Republican, I am voting for her husband not for her (and after Hillary, it is not a very good argument, it will definitely not sway me either way).
Although I don't like pyramid schemes, I used to use a lot of Amway products (NO I was not a distributor or involved in the company in any other way), and I liked them. So, although I detest the pyramid scheme as much as anybody else, I don't think you can say they ripped people off because their products (at least in my opinion) were not bad and were actually a good value for the price (at least at the time I used to use them).
So, if the Democrats on this board care about helping the undecided, let me give you a clue...shut up about her being a victim and tell me why I should believe she is going to have the balls to do what it takes to turn this state around, because if I don't believe that, DeVos will get my vote, even if it is a vote against Granholm more than for DeVos.
Well?
One other point I would like to add is that Granholm promised to name a team of "Blight Busters" that would be empowered to tear down dangerous and abandoned properties (Blueprint for michigan, pg 21, September 2002). To date no such commitee has been formed and we are left with a serious problem in Detroit that only adds to the crime problem in that city.
I am not going to say that Devos is the Best solution that Michigan has and that he will fix all of our problems, I just feel that it is time to try a new diretion, we have seen what four years of Granholm has had to offer, and we know that Engler did nothing to help the situation either. Its time for a change and Devos is the best shot Michigan has right now.
OK Cynthia, let me take a shot at answering you with three simple reasons.
1. 21st century jobs fund. It's Granholm's baby, a $2 billion dollar fund for attracting new job creation IN MICHIGAN. The first round of funding has happened at it is the biggest fund of its kind in the country.
Devos plan: you tell me, Joshua.
2. Budget. Granholm has made huge cuts to the state budget. Michigan had a $4 billion dollar deficit when she took office. However, the state budget is cut so far that cuts now will be cutting bone.
DeVos plan: look for unspecified areas to cut.
3. Health Care. The auto industry, schools and other sectors are REELING because health care is skyrocketing. Granholm has a plan to offer health care to Michigan citizens by recovering Federal dollars. Health care is THE issue for the US. We have hidden from dealign with health care for YEARS in the US and now it's time to do something.
Devos plan: get a job, get health care (ie: let someone else figure it out)
Ok Pete, here we go:
1) 21st century jobs fund, this is 2 billion dollars out of our pockets to fund her idea of job creation. All it is is more beaurocracy and a chance for more waste and mismanagement by Granholm as I have pointed out in previous posts she is great at. Not to mention that it is four years too late!
2)Education:
GRANHOLM TO CUT SCHOOL FUNDING
—————————————————————-
LANSING, Mich. – After an emergency state budget meeting, Gov.
Jennifer Granholm has announced that she plans to cut over $130
million from the state’s $12.7 billion school-aid budget.
This move would reduce the $6,700 per-student foundation grant by
about $56. “I think the governor did the right thing by going
after the sacred cow of state education spending,” former Deputy
Director of Taxation Gary Wolfram told the South Bend Tribune.
“We know intuitively if you’re spending $6,627 per pupil versus
$6,700, it should not affect the quality of the education in that
classroom.”
During her campaign, Granholm made repeated promises not to
decrease school spending. However, the current economic climate
has forced the state to make cuts in all areas, including
education. “What has created the shortfall in the School Aid Fund
is the economy, not our valiant attempts to keep our promise to
Michigan’s students and their parents,” explained state Sen. Ron
Jelinek, chairman of the Senate Appropriations Subcommittee on K-
12 Education.
3) Dont let Pete Fool you, in her first term Granholm has proposed, supported, and signed over 2 Billion in new taxes.
4)Pete likes to talk about cutting the budget, here are the facts:
Granholm promised to cut the states General fund Budget by up to 5% through reductions in administration and overhead costs for an estimated savings of $450 Million. (Blueprint for michigan pg 26, September 2002)
Since 2003 Granholm has increased the General fund budget by 4.8%, or $422 Million dollars (Ofiice of state budget)
She hasnt cut wasteful beurocracy yet, why would she start now?
5) Health care: She promises to fund this with Federal Dollars? She couldnt even get a meeting between the white house and the auto industry, how is she going to get funding for this monstrosity???
More empty promises.
Thanks Pete
Cynthia: Permit me a quick and partial response to your post. As a self employed person I don't always have the time I'd like to write here, but I'll try to do more later.
Pete seems to have dealt with some issues, and I agree with him, but I'd like to talk about your post for a second.
You state pretty emphatically that your perception of Granholm is that she's not taking responsibility and that your friends sound like they are making excuses and making her sound like a victim. You ask her to "stop whining".
To the extent that more has not been accomplished during the past four years, I agree with and share your frustration. But, in examining my own concern and frustration with the Michigan situation and Granholm's part in it, I don't think I can do so honestly without some perspective..some context.
This is where I believe you see excuse making. I do not see it that way.
If you examine, as I'm sure you have, the condition of Michigan on John Engler's last day in office you'll see a state in free fall. It was suggested by some political commentators at the time that Engler was getting out while the getting was good.
Granholm inherited a huge mess, replete with deferred debt and looted dedicated funds (thus, Prop. 1 is on the budget)AND inherited the Single Business Tax that Joshua loves to whine about. (He never did answer why Engler didn't kill it when he had the power to do so).
Does reciting this (and I'm sure you've heard it before) mean I'm making excuses? I think not.
I hold Granholm responsible for doing the best job she can to correct the problems she inherited and share your disappointment that more hasn't been accomplished in the past 4 years. But as I hold her responsiblefor where we are, I do so with the perspective of where we were when she took office.
Overall, I think she's done a pretty good job of getting Michigan prepared for a turnaround, though I think we ALL wish it could happen faster. That firm footing needs a lot more work, and I'm willing to give her another term to continue the job. In another 4, I'll make another judgement based on the progress. It's going to be a long haul, regardless of who's Governor.
Thanks for your impassioned and well written post. It's a pleasure to read someone besides El Joshbo. Common sense and civility are increasingly rare commodities.
Let's keep talking.
I'll have more to say after I go make some money.
This---> ..
Is my eyes looking at Joshua. Man, your article is from 2003!! 2003!!! There was this $4 billion dollar budget hole in 2003. It's 2006!!!!!
http://www.educationreport.org.....sp?ID=4983
I am powerless before your superior fanaticism. Color me "ignoring Joshua".
Wait, let me be sure you're getting it. ..
OK.
Okay Pete, one thing at a time, you brought up the 21st century jobs fund.
On the surface, it 21st century jobs fund sounds good, but you don't go very in-depth with it. I have looked at it, it sounds nice on the surface but I am not convinced it will help all that much, and even if it does it will take time (probably quite a bit of time, realistically), and in the meantime the condition of the state economy will continue to worsen.
As Granholm said herself during the debates, 97,000 high-tech jobs go unfilled in MI because there is NOBODY with the skills to fill them (Dice's (dice.com) recent report on technical jobs in MI confirms there is no shortage here for people WITH the skills). Assuming MORE high-tech business comes here, with more high-tech jobs, this begs the question, if we don't have the people to fill the 97,000 high-tech jobs available now, and all of those jobs (life sciences, alternative energy,, advanced automotive, manufacturing and materials, homeland security and defense) will ALSO be high-tech jobs, HOW is this going to solve the problem?
Would it not be better to invest FIRST in some re-training so that we have the people to do the high-tech jobs rather than investing in bringing more businesses here when we don't have people to do the jobs that already exist, all 97,000 of them?
I recall a quick mention from Jennifer during the debates (we will have to get people certified). Now my IQ is in the superior range, not genius, but I do have a lot of common sense. Common sense says to me, make the PEOPLE the priority. If you have the skilled workforce (in spite of the other depressing business conditions here like taxes, no mass transit to speak of, etc.), they will still come. Then as you have more tax revenue you fix the place up, look at Toronto, CA, now they were smart. That is why Ann Arbor's UI is usually around 3%, they don't have any recession there.
IMHO, money should be prioritized towards re-training people, qualifying them to do those high-tech jobs, making it more affordable for people already doing technical work to move up to higher levels and make room for newcomers on the lower levels. But, I have not heard any such plan from Granholm (except for the one vauge mention which didn't outline any plans).
So, on this point I would have to agree with Joshua so far, because it is, we will go out and find more companies to come here does sound like more bureacracy, and we need some shorter-term solutions than that. There are no good projections of what the returns will be or how long it will take. I am not convinced, and in fact I think what should be done is what I was already talking about, fill the existing jobs before we loose those companies to other states or countries that can too, or the jobs are outsourced.
And regarding shorter-term solutions, before you even bring it up...every time I am driving and I see a construction barrel, I think of, "every barrel means a job" (I honestly don't believe that each barrel actually represents one job, but it is catchy, I will give her that. I sure can't get it out of my head.)
That is not that great of a short-term solution, but it is better than nothing (I guess).
When are they going to start building that mass-transit system Kwame and Jennifer have given lip service to for the past 4 years?
I can't believe Engler never did anything about that, that is not my idea of a true conservative (who would have been forward looking enough to see how important that was). Unfortunately, I have to agree with your assement of him lining his pockets.
But, I also looked even further back into your history and I think after the riots here in the 60's, things were handled very badly by all politicans concerned, Mayors, Governor, etc. Then Coleman Young (who you would think should be sainted talking to some people), spent 20 years presiding over a Detroit that deteriorated into a shell of a City (if you can call it a real City, there are towns in NJ where I am from that are more of a City than Detroit), and the only thing that really saved it was gambling.
So you had all these crooked politicans on the take (and I don't think that has changed much in Detroit, I say that from experience but I won't go there), nobody cared about the future of the place, they just figured the automotive economy would last forever (the obvious writing was on the wall since the 70's, but I guess they were too "busy" to notice.
It is actually very sad that all that deterioration was allowed to happen. Some parts of NYC were deteriorating but they got it together and started fixing them up. What I am saying I guess is I think all this division at 8 mile road is part of the problem, unless you are going to build world class airport in Southfield or Troy.
Anyway, I don't know how I got on that tangent, will address the other issues in other posts.
Your right Pete, lets talk about 2006:
By Nancy Hanover
17 October 2006
Granholm, no enemy of tax cuts for corporations, has already cut, according to difference sources, between $600 million and $1 billion in tax liability for Michigan business during her term of office. Belatedly, she has now added her support to the repeal of the SBT tax, calling for a more “targeted” tax system, adding her stamp of approval to the hijacking of the state’s economy in order not to alienate big business, especially in view of the extremely tight governor’s race.
What programs will be cut? The major programs supported by Michigan’s General Fund are: higher education, supporting Michigan’s public colleges and universities ($1.9 billion); community health—mental health, public health and Medicaid ($2.9 billion); and human services, including family services, juvenile justice and public assistance ($1.2 billion). In addition the department of corrections spends $1.8 billion a year.
In addition, the pressures on the General Fund also impact K-12 educational aid, reducing per pupil spending an estimated $250 or a total of $420 million in fiscal year 2007. The state will also find it difficult to cover the employee health insurance for school workers under the current projections.
The crisis in the general fund will most likely impact higher education the most. Already revenues for colleges have been cut by 14 percent in the past two years, because of federal mandates on Medicaid and the ising numbers of prisoners, its the easiest target. Tuition hikes at Michigan public colleges is already rising at nearly double digit rates anually.
In 2006 there is a $773 Million dollar funding gap between the Governors budget and acual revenue (per the Office of the State Budget)
In her own words:
Granholm, a Democrat who was instrumental in pushing for the tougher requirements, says Michigan residents must have the knowledge to compete in the global economy.
"We've got to recognize that education is crucial to Michigan's future," she said. "We've got to win the mind race, not the muscle race."
Granholm says she could support merit pay for teachers, with some conditions.
"We need to be all about improving public education, and there is a place for merit pay in those efforts. It needs to be done in a way that is fair and effective," she said. "If the school community wanted to see that happen, I'd be supportive of it."
Once again, she talks a great game but doesnt back it up! The numbers tell the truth.
I think Joshua has a good point.
As I already pointed out, we have 97,000 EXISTING high-tech jobs we cannot fill. So, we cut education funding so that we have even less people to fill the jobs? But, we need more bureauacracy so that we can bring in more jobs that we will have even less people to fill becuase of less educational funding?
How does this work? We need a re-training program - NOW.
I am in school at night to learn more and have better credentials so I can move up, but I pay as I go, I just hope I can keep doing that, as long as I have a job and other things do not get worse.
Pete:
"Budget. Granholm has made huge cuts to the state budget. Michigan had a $4 billion dollar deficit when she took office. However, the state budget is cut so far that cuts now will be cutting bone.
Okay, what sources do you cite for this information? Quite frankly, I have a hard time believing this.
DeVos plan: look for unspecified areas to cut."
It is not so unreasonable to have to look and find the areas to cut. To commit to something before you have all the data seems more irresponsible in my opinion.
"Health Care. The auto industry, schools and other sectors are REELING because health care is skyrocketing. Granholm has a plan to offer health care to Michigan citizens by recovering Federal dollars. Health care is THE issue for the US. We have hidden from dealign with health care for YEARS in the US and now it’s time to do something.
Devos plan: get a job, get health care (ie: let someone else figure it out)"
Yes but she said this 4 years ago, HOW and when is she going to pull this off? It sounds good, but why should I believe now will be different than 4 years ago?
Cris, yes it seems Engler was terrible from what I can see, no argument there. Still, he did not make this mess by himself. I brought up Coleman Young (who Detroiters seem to venerate), but IMHO he didn't do squat. When I brought that up to said venerating Detroiters, it was, well, the state would not cooperate, they wouldn't give him enough money, blah, blah, blah. The Michigan State Legislature and City of Detroit government sat back and let things go to pot as well. There is plenty of responsibility to go around.
Everybody on the take (I would not be surprised if Hoffa is under the RenCen), everybody blaming everybody else, gee, why doesn't anything get done here? If people don't start swimming together at some point, they will sink together, that is for sure.
There should not be one world north of 8 mile and another world south of 8 mile (and before you ask, I live in West Bloomfield so I am from the north).
But anyway, why is the priority not on traiining the people. As what is left of the big 3 continue to downsize, more and more people will be out of work.
I ask again, why is this not the priority?
More government is NOT the answer, of that I am sure.
You are right Cynthia, if we fail to invest in our childrens and our education for that matter, we will have to import workers from outside of Michigan to fill these High Tech jobs. How does that help the average citizen of Michigan?
I encourage you to check out the Devos plan for education:
http://www.devosforgovernor.co.....cation.pdf
Before anybody gets on my case about Coleman Young, let me say that I know about his building projects and the other things he did. I shold have said he didn't do squat for Detroit's future. By the late 70's you had to have your head in the sand not to see that you should not have all your eggs in the automotive industry basket, to me that is not so great.
Did you know that Michigan experienced the third largest tuition and fee charge increase for public Universities in the United States during the 2005-2006 academic year?
Cynthia, you're saying a lot, but it seems to boil down to two things.
One is the fact that you don't believe the state has revenue problems. We do. Just ask. Every figure the Jman pulls down about how "the Governor cut this" and "the Governor cut that" is the evidence. I notice that our REPUBLICAN legislature is somehow out of the equation, probably because they have done absolutely NOTHING while Michigan has burned. Hey Posthumus, couldn't you at least FIDDLE for us or something?
Fine: Michigan's financial problems are solely on the shoulders of the Governor. If we say that can we get you to admit that Michigan has a huge budget problem? If you admit that, can you please see that if you have a budget crunch, you are forced to cut and do more with less?
Your second thing is that you feel the Governor should be paying more attention to buffing up our work force BEFORE we go looking for new jobs. Can we keep Google though? In fact, can we rethink your priorities? I agree that Michigan's work force is weaker than it should be. I'm sure that's probably Granholm's fault too. Fine.
The question becomes, does it make sense to spend a lot of money that we can't recover (the tobacco settlement monies for 21K Jobs) on improving our work force and hope like hell that someone notices how smart they are and brings some jobs for them OR does it make more sense to spend that money attracting jobs? I say: attract the jobs.
People with jobs pay taxes, companies pay taxes, taxes provide funds to improve education (including retraining) and other public services including really major things that no politician on either side has addressed in 50 years like Detroit. People with jobs also eat out, shop at stores and spend money on other things that can generate jobs for the undertrained elements in our workforce.
If there are good jobs to be had people WILL go to college and WILL invest in retraining and WILL move to Michigan to fill them.
Joshua---> ..
Sounds great on paper, unfortunatly Michigan hasnt seen the results of previous promises and proposals from this Governor. I am not here to offer opinions, I am stating facts. Thats what I have noticed about the majority of the postings, we are getting alot of opinions but not much to back them up, just more fingers pointed at everyone else. I think the buck should stop somewhere! You have no problems blaming Bush for everything wrong with the country, why dont you hold your Governor to the same standards?
"One is the fact that you don’t believe the state has revenue problems. We do. Just ask. Every figure the Jman pulls down about how “the Governor cut this” and “the Governor cut that” is the evidence. I notice that our REPUBLICAN legislature is somehow out of the equation, probably because they have done absolutely NOTHING while Michigan has burned. Hey Posthumus, couldn’t you at least FIDDLE for us or something?"
Who said I hold the legislature harmless? That is very far from the truth, and I never said that. I haven't decided who I am voting for when it comes to that either but I never said Granholm is solely to blame, show me one place where I said that. In fact, I said the entire government of the state is to blame for us getting in this mess in the first place (and I believe that is the truth because the writing was on the wall with the auto industry, they just stuck their collective heads in the sand, Republican and Democrat alike).
This conversation is about Gubernatorial candidates, so that is what I am considering here, but I am actually undecided across the board. I always liked Stabenow, but I just don't know. Anyway, we should stick to the subject at hand.
"Fine: Michigan’s financial problems are solely on the shoulders of the Governor. If we say that can we get you to admit that Michigan has a huge budget problem? If you admit that, can you please see that if you have a budget crunch, you are forced to cut and do more with less?"
I would not argue that point, but that was not the point. I asked if you would show me some sources about the cuts she has made in state government.
As I already mentionsd, I spent some time at the City of Detroit, hearing the money shortages and budget bemoaned all the time. Then I looked around me and saw all the things that could easily be cut to save money, all the waste, and not to mention the corruption. People just waiting till they could get in their 30 years or turn 50 and collect their pensions (I will be lucky if I can retire by 70, let me get out my violin and fiddle for them).
So, I guess I figure it is the same way with the state (across the board), there are plenty of things that could probably be cut without sacrificing quality. It is better to have less administrative workers and let the kids get a better education (sorry administrative workers but that is the truth). I don't mean to pick on administrative workers, that is just one example I came up with, but the same can apply in many other areas.
"Your second thing is that you feel the Governor should be paying more attention to buffing up our work force BEFORE we go looking for new jobs. Can we keep Google though? In fact, can we rethink your priorities? I agree that Michigan’s work force is weaker than it should be. I’m sure that’s probably Granholm’s fault too. Fine."
Did you miss the part about there are 97,000 high-tech jobs ALREADY AVAILABLE in Michigan that cannot be filled because there are not skilled workers to fill them? Did you miss the part about Dice giving a very healthy technical job report for this state?
Google is 1,000 jobs (assuming they can find the high-tech workers to fill those jobs).
There are 97,000 jobs available, sitting there waiting for workers to fill them, but we don't have the people with the skills to do it.
You say it is better to go out and look for MORE jobs we can't fill when we should be training people to do the jobs we already have? I am sorry but that makes no sense!
If we do not train our workforce, more businesses will leave the state and go where they can find qualified workers, or they will outsource the work.
Go read the report on Dice.com, this is considered a hot area for technical jobs (and dice is the top site for finding technical jobs). What are you not understanding about what I am trying to say? Here is a link for you:
http://tinyurl.com/yax6on
Okay, Google, will we now have 98,000 jobs that cannot be filled because we don't have qualified people?
"The question becomes, does it make sense to spend a lot of money that we can’t recover (the tobacco settlement monies for 21K Jobs) on improving our work force and hope like hell that someone notices how smart they are and brings some jobs for them OR does it make more sense to spend that money attracting jobs? I say: attract the jobs."
Hello Pete. Let me say this slowly so it sinks in, THE JOBS ARE ALREADY HERE, 97,000 unfilled high-tech positions ARE ALREADY HERE IN MI but we do not have the qualified workers do to the jobs.
So, you say go and bring in even more high-tech jobs that we still won't have the qualified people to do, and meanwhile we could be loosing the 97,000 we already have because we don't have qualified workers.
Tell me how that makes any sense?
Lets boil this down and make it really simple. You have 97,000 available jobs. You have peoople who can't find a job. Train the people who can't find a job, help the people already in tech to move higher up the ladder and make room in the lower rungs for people just starting out.
But, according to you, hey, just hire more government workers to bring in more jobs that we still won't have the workers to do and that will fix everything!
Ummm, yeah, sure it will. Why bother training them to take one of the 97,000 availabel jobs when you can be busy brining in more jobs they still can't do.
Brlliant!
I don't mean to be sarcastic, (well, maybe I do), but what kind of logic is that?
"If there are good jobs to be had people WILL go to college and WILL invest in retraining and WILL move to Michigan to fill them."
Not to sound like a parrot, but there are 97,000 jobs AVAILABLE RIGHT NOW THAT CANNOT BE FILLED BECUASE WE DO NOT HAVE THE QUALIFIED WORKERS.
How will they go to college when they have no money to go to college? Don't you think they would have already if they could have? The jobs are already there, are you paying any attentino to the job market?
Granholm herself said during the debate, (so she knows it and she admits it) that there are 97,000 high-tech jobs in this state and there are not qualified workers to do them.
You know what they do? When I lived in NJ there were adds in the paper all the time, come to Michigan for a good high-tech job! We came here because my husband got a high-tech job (and they did try to fill it with an in-state worker first becuase they had to pay him to move out here).
Wake up and smell the coffee man!
We need to invest in education and by doing so we will educate our way out of dependance on the Auto Industry. The days are gone that you can leave High school and start working in a auto plant. The sooner Michigan realizes this fact, the sooner we will recover.
Not to sound stupid - wait, I could care less if I sound stupid because I'm annoyed that I had to read everything you said to find out that your only point is:
1. I worked in Detroit and the bureaucracy was very corrupt (NO! Shocking!)
and
2. There are 91,000 technology jobs in Michigan that can't be filled.
Anyway, I went to your link to:
http://www.dice.com/content/se....._lmr3.html
All I could find that talked about jobs was: "And those opportunities can be seen in several other indicators. According to Dice, job listings have climbed since January, up an impressive 17% to 1,074 by the end of September."
WHERE are these 91,000 unfilled technology jobs? I missed that line in the debate and need a link or a news story or anything. A simple link or sentence will suffice.
I'll have to echo Pete here...where is this 97,000 figure from? I missed a good part of the 2nd debate, so maybe I just never heard it.
In any case, I don't see how this figure is surprising, unless you believe DeVos's (and,I think, Joshuas) statements that college graduates HAVE to leave Michigan to find jobs. It would be rather surprising to have qualified grads leave the state when good jobs were going unfilled.
High tech jobs often require highly specialized skills, so it's no surprise that many jobs are available. Friends in the Bay area tell me they are aggressively searching and hiring all the time, even though they are in an area very, very attractive to people in the high tech fields. It's the nature of the beast. Is there any evidence that high-tech firms are deserting our state because they can't find workers? Doubt it!
And, as long as I'm asking questions: What's wrong with qualified workers moving TO our fine state to take those high tech jobs? Nothing! The job openings are a vacuum, of sorts, and nature abhors a vacuum and seeks to fill it. It's how the world works, and why aspiring actors move to S. California. Should we not welcome you to Michigan, Cynthia, because your husbands job should have gone to a Michigan resident? With all due respect, that makes no sense.
To NOT initiate a vigorous program to bring more businesses to our state merely because there are job vacancies would be silly. Few companies make a decision one week and then move in the next...this is a process that often takes years.
Job retraining is admirable and very much needed, no question, but it's not an either/or proposition. We can and should do BOTH, but few people will train for jobs that don't exist, and employers should be an integral part of government sponsored job retraining in any case.
Michigan has had a long tradition of manual labor jobs that paid well, and this doubtless encouraged the very stupid notion that higher education was not really neccessary because one could always get a job at GM, just like Dad did. There are lots of people who can benefit from retraining, but, sadly, there are plenty of people who will simply NOT find another job screwing widgets together.
I sincerely doubt that the savvy kazillionaire boys at Google would have chosen Michigan for an important part of their business if they had any doubt whatsoever that a competent workforce was able and available. You don't to be a 400+ dollar stock by making simple mistakes like that.
I looked at your link to dice.com, Cynthia, and it cheered me up!
Sounds like the folks writing that piece see Michigan on the rebound already! Sorry, Josh.....;) If there is any mention in DICE about companies suffering or leaving our state due to a lack of workers, I'd love to read it. Surely you would have taken note of it and can cite the article? Thanks.
ALL of Michigans public institutions and agencies have suffered deep cuts, including education. As I read the info that Joshbo cites, GranholM axed a whole 130 some million dollars from education...less than 1 % and some 56 dollars per student. Where I live, (NW Lower peninsula) that won't make a difference in educational quality. While he cites the above, he howls about waste in State spending NOT being addressed. I find it amusing.
"How will they (whoever "they" are) go to college? How does anyone go to college? Work hard, beg and borrow, and do it. It happens hundreds of thousands of times every year in Michigan.
I'm interested, Cynthia, in what you think about Dick's plan for educating our way out of our dilemma. I haven't been able to get enough specific info to make a judgement, which is another reason I couldn't vote for him.
I see, in reading back to Q1 in the Dice Detroit report, that the "leading technology career site" had a modest monthly gain in listings, up about 1 %, to just over 1,000 listings. Either the "leading" site is puny, or there is more to the 97,000 jobs gone wanting. I can't explain it, just find it curious. The same publication also says that Michigan lost 5,200 net tech jobs last year. Though most were probably in auto related positions, that sounds like a need for employers to me.
Once again Cris is full of opinions but nothing to back up what he says, If you want an op ed read the paper. And Cris if you whould pay a little more attention to what I post instead of guessing, that $130 million was in 2003, this is what she is doing this year:
What programs will be cut? The major programs supported by Michigan’s General Fund are: higher education, supporting Michigan’s public colleges and universities ($1.9 billion); community health—mental health, public health and Medicaid ($2.9 billion); and human services, including family services, juvenile justice and public assistance ($1.2 billion). In addition the department of corrections spends $1.8 billion a year.
In addition, the pressures on the General Fund also impact K-12 educational aid, reducing per pupil spending an estimated $250 or a total of $420 million in fiscal year 2007. The state will also find it difficult to cover the employee health insurance for school workers under the current projections.
The crisis in the general fund will most likely impact higher education the most. Already revenues for colleges have been cut by 14 percent in the past two years, because of federal mandates on Medicaid and the ising numbers of prisoners, its the easiest target. Tuition hikes at Michigan public colleges is already rising at nearly double digit rates anually.
What amazes me is you only see what you want to see, so your $56 dollars she cut in 2003 wont hurt your upperclass schools but tack that on to the $250 she is cutting this year and see what that does to your classrooms.
Get the facts straight before you put your foot in your mouth.
All that cut n paste must get you confused, Joshboy. I was quoting and responding to your post # 249 item 2. Where, in #249 item 2, do you state WHAT year's figures you are using? Nowhere, that I can see. I made no mention of anything else other than the fact they were your figures from a current post.
If you think anyone mistakes your "copy wisdom" for fact, you're deluding yourself.
Opinion is what this comment board is all about. The fact that you can't seem to summon up one that makes much sense doesn't change that, but it does explain why you're so tiresome.
You can't depend on Rush, Sean, and Devosforgovernor.com for everything, but you apparently don't have much else to go on, so stay with it, I guess. I'll just not expect you to have answers to questions that aren't covered on Devos's site.
Hint: If your interest is hiding the clip/paste stuff, try retyping instead of copying so you can work your misspellings, syntax errors and general verbal clumsy-ness into them.
I graduated from a tiny small town public school in the village I still live in, and used old textbooks that sometimes were taped together. Is that the upperclass school you were talking about?
The good folks who run that same school today have improved things a lot, over the years, and appear to be able to adapt and weather the necessary cutbacks just fine, thanks.
"Get the facts straight before you put your foot in your mouth"...coming from you, that makes me laugh so hard I just can't seem to care about a response.
I am glad your hole in the wall school is doing good with all the cutbacks, let me know if I can donate some pencils or erasers to help out, as for the rest of the state we are sick of Granholm and your BS. You are so far to the left you make Nancy Pelosi look like a centrist. There is no hope for you, all you are good for is lame insults and constant incoherant ramblings. You have yet to put up an intellegent defense for your candidate, instead you spin worse than the Howard Dean. You are making my case for me, so keep it up pretty boy! I am loving every minuite of it!
Cynthia, Cris, Pete – I’m glad you are here.
First, I have to say that Mrs. Beach makes the best cookies. Mmmm mmm mmm. These are yummy. Mr. Beach loves Mrs. Beach very, very much.
Cynthia, I too tend to lean towards the right for business issues and lean towards the left for social issues. In the past I voted consistently for Engler. I voted for Bush in 2000 but I regretted that vote. I voted for Kerry in 2004 but I really, really wanted to vote for McCain instead.
Seems to me that most of what I hear Joshua yammering about today is how Governor Granholm cut-this-and-cut-that boo hoo. Well, HECK YEAH! Governor Granholm has been balancing a budget that was neck deep in the red. If she has to cut some funding from programs then I’ll be there sharpening her axe!
I’m not the only fiscally conservative Republican that is supporting Granholm this year. I agree with Gil Zeigler founder of RepublicansForGranholm. Gil Ziegler, an automotive supplier that is directly impacted by Michigan’s economy and long time supporter of the Republican Party notes, “Gov. Granholm IS a fiscal hawk. State government is leaner, with fewer employees than it had 1975. She’s balanced $4Billion in budget deficits by making tough cuts. And, she’s done it all without raising income taxes. In fact, she’s cut taxes 59 times. That’s a record even Republicans can support.”
Nick Baise, the RepublicansForGranholm treasurer said, “On the economic front, we trust Jennifer Granholm because she has a transparent economic plan. It’s available today, and it’s in motion today, but Mr. DeVos’ plan won’t be available until after the election.”
Funny, I don’t see any Democrats for devos groups out there.
Oh, before anyone starts citing the ‘TurnAround Plan’. Read it again. It’s nothing more than a bunch of ideas. Has anyone noticed that most of those ‘ideas’ are already being done by Governor Granholm. Hmmm, has devos been plagiarizing the Governor? Nah, this must be a coincidence.
Cynthia, Cris, Pete – again, I’m glad you are here.
And, Joshua, you are still an idiot.
Cynthia asked, “Would it not be better to invest FIRST in some re-training so that we have the people to do the high-tech jobs rather than investing in bringing more businesses here when we don’t have people to do the jobs that already exist, all 97,000 of them?”
Actually, there is a ton of retraining money (state and federal) out there available to people in Michigan. That’s not even including the massive amount of retraining dollars that are being given to the big 3 employees that took buyouts.
I apologize, I have to get to bed so I’m simply going to suggest that you research what Michigan Works has to offer people. Here is a quick summary though.
If a company needs trained employees then that company can go to Michigan Works to get them. Once Michigan Works gets a promise from the company that the company will hire workers then the Michigan Works will train qualified people for the job. So, if ABC Manufacture needs 50 certified technicians to maintain new robots for their new manufacturing facilities then Michigan Works will identify 50 qualified candidates and train them as certified technicians for ABC Manufacture to hire.
It is very important to note that the current unemployment rate is artificially high. If you factor out the rash of buyouts\layoffs (Big 3 and suppliers) then Michigan will probably have a lower unemployment rate when compared to the national average.
Beach is going to bed now.
Have a great day!
Chris, I am sure there are transcripts of the debates. Granholm herself said there are 97,000 unfilled tech jobs, since you don't believe me, go read a transcript.
Chris:
OOOPS I am in error, I recalled the number incorrectly, it is 92,000, so I was off by a whole 5,000 (sorry I have a lot on my mind). If you don't believe Jennifer, then you can just be in denial, but I will stick to the facts.
"JMG: Thank you. I want to let the voters know, because they may not have heard of all of the pieces of this economic plan…nobody knows better than I do that we have to reshape Michigan for the future and so that’s why you need to know I’ve got short term goals, medium term and long-term strategies that will move Michigan forward. In the short term, I signed into law 84 tax cuts, including a $600 million tax cut for manufacturers to try to make us as competitive as we possibly can. We know that taxes aren’t the only reason why jobs are going to Mexico or China because, of course, job providers can pay 50 cents an hour in other countries. But we will do what we can do in Michigan. We have revolutionized workforce training…we’ve got more victims of this global economy that any other state in the country at the moment. People who’ve seen their jobs go on a slowboat to China or on the Internet to India, or on a fast track to Mexico. So we’ve put people in short term training programs in partnership with community colleges to train them for vacancies that exist…there are 92,000 vacancies in Michigan today – largely in areas that require certification."
http://www.michiganliberal.com.....aryId=7036
Pete: I refer you to the same transcript of debate #3 where Jennifer herself said 92,000 jobs are unfilled (so sue me for remembering the number wrong, I was pretty damn close though).
http://www.michiganliberal.com.....aryId=7036
I have my facts a lot straighter than you had yours, and DeVos is looking better and better. It took me 5 minutes to find that transcript guys, but you would rather beat me over the head than do that. I said it was in the debates.
Cris:
A lot of the jobs lost were lower level manufacturing jobs, and they are gone overseas or down south and they ain't a commin back. So, you have two things you can do:
A. Train people to do the jobs that exist but are unfilled.
B. Bring in new jobs.
Now, I never said Jennifer should not bring in new companies, great, do that, but I did say that should NOT be the priority. Not when you have 92,000 jobs already here you could be training people for.
Are you saying Michiganders are too stupid to learn? I bet you a lot of them would take exception to that, I think they are plenty smart enough.
But, if you were working at a plant and you lost your job, you might be trying to figure out how to keep your home from foreclosure and feed your wife and kids, so you might not have money for college, what do you think?
To top it off, Granholm raised educational costs so some of the kids that were struggling to make it through college are now priced out of it.
Can you see why I might think she is not going to do what this state needs, or would you rather just beat me over the head instead of having an intelligent discussion?
Joshua:
You are exactly right, the LAST thing that should be cut right now is higher education.
It is called cutting off your nose to spite your face.
Wow Cynthia, you're right. Looks like a job for Dick DeVos, Voucher Warrior!
http://www.pfaw.org/pfaw/gener.....?oid=21872
By the way, masterful job of pretending to be on the fence as a means to spew your case. I confess that you had me going!
Please continue your "debate" without me, Socrates.
Beach:
"I’m not the only fiscally conservative Republican that is supporting Granholm this year. I agree with Gil Zeigler founder of RepublicansForGranholm. Gil Ziegler, an automotive supplier that is directly impacted by Michigan’s economy and long time supporter of the Republican Party notes, “Gov. Granholm IS a fiscal hawk. State government is leaner, with fewer employees than it had 1975. She’s balanced $4Billion in budget deficits by making tough cuts. And, she’s done it all without raising income taxes. In fact, she’s cut taxes 59 times. That’s a record even Republicans can support.”
Okay, that definitely got my attention. That can go in the positive column.
But, the cuts in college funding still hurt a lot of people who would get training. If Michigan Works does so much (I was NOT impressed when I got laid off in 2001, I had to make my own way, they pretty much didn't do squat except offer me access to a computer which I already had at home).
Education needs to be a priority, but as you pointed out, we don't know what DeVos would do. I do know that Republicans are usually good about the re-training thing so I assume there would be more support for that from a Republican, but I can't know that for sure.
So, that one goes in the negative column for Jennifer for me.
I still want to hear more about the health care initiative, what can you guys tell me about that? I don't see how she is going to do it, but I really think that is necessary, the insurance situation is getting crazy here. I used to be on my husband's family plan as part of the family. Now we have to pay an extra $50 per month for me to be on it (since I am not opting to have it through my job, but my husband has better insurance so I stay on his). It just gets worse and worse, and there are so many with no insurance at all.
Pete:
Yep, look at the date, I wrote that after the first debate. I don't even have to go look at the link because I remember.
I really am undecided, but I am not here to convince you of that.
After the first debate, I thought I was decided for DeVos and I was willing to help, but after the second, I changed my mind.
I really wanted DeVos to be better than Granholm because I really didn't want to vote for her, and I have said on here (quite honestly) that I don't want to vote for either one of them.
I think I prefer to talk to Beach because he understands I want to know facts to help me make up my mind.
You and Cris just want to sling mud, please don't waste your time, because you have not helped me at all anyway and I don't need accusations, I need facts to help me make a decision and stick with it. I am not usually wishy washy, but there is a lot at stake this time.
Beach has definitely helped and given me more research to do.
"Wow Cynthia, you’re right. Looks like a job for Dick DeVos, Voucher Warrior!
http://www.pfaw.org/pfaw/gener.....?oid=21872"
I don't even know what a voucher warrior is, but no I have not done anything for his campaign. If all you guys are going to do is accuse me and not really help me, then please don't waste MY time.
I have not given him even $1, nor have I done anything else.
Sorry to disappoint you.
Beach, maybe we can exchange e-mail addresses since you have actually been helpful. I don't want to keep posting on here if I am going to spend my time defending myself.
Cris and Pete just attack me and do not address the issues.
Cris and Pete, I have no party loyalty to anyone, and I don't have to either! Up until election day, I can change my mind 50 million times if please whether you like it or not. My vote is not cast until it is cast. I don't have to be loyal to your party and I have no intention of joining either party. I will remain an independent who votes as I please.
I really don't give a rap what you think of me. I am here to get facts, I am trying to decide who to vote for next month.
Lots of people are like me and are not loyal to a certain party, and if you don't like it, too bad! I really don't give a rap what you think of my character, I am not running for election, I am trying to make up my mind who to vote for.
I certainly wouldn't presume to waste your time. Goodness knows you seem to be able to that without help.
My apologies if you AREN'T playing the "Oh I can't make up my mind but dearie me look at all this DeVos propoganda that is swaying me" role but I find it hard to believe that you're not. The fact that you can be so willfully blind to something as big as the death of the auto industry speaks volumes.
"Voucher warrior" refers to the fact that DeVos is the LARGEST funder of voucher initiatives in the country. Vouchers allow you to get tax dollars to go to private schools. They are billed as an accountability thing but what they really do is allow wealthy folks to take their kids out of public schools rather than fix the root of the problem.
In any case, vote for whoever the heck you want. I'm tired of trying to convince you that voting for a bald-faced liar like Dick DeVos with a record for funding anti-education causes, lobbying hard for tax cuts to benefit himself and for stuffing more money into the pockets of King George Bush than anyone else in the nation is anything but the most terrible of terrible ideas.
Pete: I think corruption is sad, not shocking, and no, it is not what I was used to seeing so it was pretty shocking for me.
I guess you must want a Granholm cheer fest. Well, if she gets my vote, I will be holding my nose, same for DeVos, I don't want to vote for either one of them, I want a candidate I really want to vote for.
If I could get behind DeVos I would, I really want to see this state do better since I have to live here for the forseeable future.
Unfortunately, it seems to me I have to choose between bad and worse, Granholm being bad, DeVos being worse. I don't really like either candidate and I have made no secret of that fact. I hope Granholm proves me wrong, I really do. I hope one day I can say I am sorry I ever thought she couldn't do a good job, but honestly, I will believe it when I see it. I do think she will win whether I vote for her or not, but my vote still matters to me and I don't take voting lightly.
Cynthia I am sorry that you have to put up with childish antics of Cris and Pete, its hard to have a civilized discussion with someone when you are ignorant of the facts. So they resort to name calling and mud slinging, its all they have. Desperation is becomming more and more evident as this election draws to a close. And Beach, you need to grow up and stop with the name calling as well, just because someone doesnt see eye with you is no reason to lower yourself to that level, If you want to discuss the issues thats great lets talk but keep your insults to yourself.
Pete:
Do you think you can talk to me without hurling insults? Okay, so I vented a bit, sue me. I am not happy with politicians in general and I think that should be obvious by what I have posted.
It is not the death of the auto industry, it is the transformation of the auto industry. I lived in NJ in the late 1970's and we were all saying then that this would happen. It was obvious the lower level manufacturing jobs were not going to stay here. Many people saw it coming and went back to school.
That still does not excuse the state government for not being smart enough not to put all of their eggs in one basket, that is just common sense.
Pete:
I know what vouchers are, but I was not familar with the term voucher warrior. No, I am not a voucher warrior, I would rather see the entire education system improved, but I think the NEAA gets in the way of that, and I think the public school system needs serious work if we are going to remain competitive in the world.
It is just like with unions, without people being wiling to find solutions you just have a stalemate and nothing gets done. I just hope that now it is not too late for talking. I am not very pro-union as you can probably tell. I completely agree with the original intent of unions, but I think they became too corrupt and less representative of the workers, more for their own existence.
Joshua:
What will DeVos do about education, does he want to use vouchers?
Has he come up with any healtcare plan yet? That is a major problem for me in considering him as a candidate. I don't want to hear "get a job", there are major things that have to be fixed.
Cynthia, as far as vouchers go, he stated he was not going to support them, he had in the past but he stated during the debates that he would not sign legislation for school vouchers.
As for Health care:
1) By replacing the SBT with a fair and simple buisness tax, this will end the practice of charging job providers for providing health care. This will make health insurance more affordable for employers to provide to their employees.
2)Getting people back to work will help, especially in jobs that have benefits
3)Taking advantage of technology in the health care sector. It is estimated that Michigan could save 20% on its health care costs.
4)Promoting consumer driven health insurance options that can provide more affordable alternatives to many Michigan citizens
5)Fighting fraud and abuse. Individuals who cheat the system cost Michigan Millions of dollars eah year. last year, at least $200 Million Michigan taxpayer dollars where wasted due to Medical fraud.
6)Proteting patients and Doctors from frivolous law suits. These lawsuits drive up the cost of healthcare for all Michigan residents.
I think one of the major differences between the two candidates is that instead of having all the answers, Devos has stated during the debates and throughout his campaign that he will work with the legislature to accomplish tasks, ie replacing the SBT, Working on healthcare, promoting Michigan to new buisnesses. Instead of blamming the congress he would work with them. A governor can talk a great game, but if they are unwilling to cross party lines and work on a bipartisan basis, nothing will get done.
Joshua:
"Cynthia, as far as vouchers go, he stated he was not going to support them, he had in the past but he stated during the debates that he would not sign legislation for school vouchers."
Okay, that one threw me for a loop becuase his plan says that there will be more funding for higher education, scholarships, etc.
I am glad to hear that is not the case.
Beach:
This is one issue that might get DeVos my vote beause I don't see how the Opportunity Partnership or Michigan Works are doing enough and I think education is key to fixing the problems in this stae. Higher education costs have been raised, and this really bothers me. I don't get how they increased the education costs but Granholm says she is going to give 4K to each child who wants to go to college, but then why not increase the costs in the first place? This is another one of those, it doesnt make any sense things. Great about the scholarship, but if the costs are raised to begin with then aren't you just charging them more but then giving some back, so how much is that $4,000 really?
DeVos is still funding voucher efforts. Right now. His WIFE is the chair of All Children Matter, a nationwide organization. To believe that he will abandon an issue he has poured millions of dollars into requires more faith in Dick DeVos than I can muster.
Remember, this is the guy who said "Michigan's laws regarding abortion are fine" at the debate, smugly meaning that Michigan's on the books ban on abortion. The man is a snake. But then anyone who's ever been taken by Amway already knows that.
Joshua:
"I think one of the major differences between the two candidates is that instead of having all the answers, Devos has stated during the debates and throughout his campaign that he will work with the legislature to accomplish tasks, ie replacing the SBT, Working on healthcare, promoting Michigan to new buisnesses. Instead of blamming the congress he would work with them. A governor can talk a great game, but if they are unwilling to cross party lines and work on a bipartisan basis, nothing will get done."
That is a really good point too becuase I want change.
I honestly don't think DeVos will win because of the likeability factor. The same thing happened to Kerry when he ran for President. A lot of people didn't vote for him just becuase they thought he was creepy or whatever (which I am sure you were glad about since you are a Republican), but I see that same thing happening with DeVos. I talk to people and they are just like, I like Granholm better. I ask why and they are like, I don't know, I just don't like Devos, he givs me the creeps or some other thing along those lines.
I will vote for who I think can do the best job.
Then look agt the record of Granholm and let that help you with your decision. As far as likeability, I know George W isnt very popular with about half of the country and well, he's still in office. I do think our country has become way too polarized and needs to chill out (just look at the postings on this site), we have alot of serious issues facing us and everything is spun to the right or left. It is a little dishartening, we need someone who will work with both parties to get the job done, and I havent seen much of that from either candidate.
Pete:
I guess if abortion is a big issue for you. For me, I am pro-choice but I am not fanatical about it either way. I don't know how Amway "took" people, I knew friends I brought stuff from when I lived in NJ, and they never complained about it (they were distributors), so you must know stories I don't know. If they were outright lying to people or something like that, then I can see the point, otherwise, if you get involved in a pyramid scheme it is your choice.
If DeVos is saying he is going to do fund education (like in his plan) and not saying anything about vouchers, and then he did that, he sure would not get another term. That would be political suicide on his part. For that reason, even if he is pro-voucher I would think he would be safe at least for 1 term with that, but you never know, maybe I am assuming too much!
My biggest concern with DeVos is that he will pander to big business too much at the expense of the common man (which is what I think Bush does and just one of the many reasons I didn't vote for im the second time and campaigned for Kerry).
My biggest concern with Granholm is that we may get another 4 years where nothing really changes.
So, that is about where I am at with it now.
I really wish there was a better candidate because too many people I know are saying they will not vote since they don't want either one (these are people that usually vote). I think people should vote no matter what, if they didn't have the right to vote then they wouild complain about that, but it is like people are just giving up, and that is scary.
Joshua:
"Then look agt the record of Granholm and let that help you with your decision. As far as likeability, I know George W isnt very popular with about half of the country and well, he’s still in office. I do think our country has become way too polarized and needs to chill out (just look at the postings on this site), we have alot of serious issues facing us and everything is spun to the right or left. It is a little dishartening, we need someone who will work with both parties to get the job done, and I havent seen much of that from either candidate.:"
I was so sorry I voted for Bush the first time! I think we are in Iraq for reasons we have not even been told about (but it does not escape my attention that if you are in Afghanistan and you are in Iraq, what is right in the middle of that, hmmm could it be Iran)? I said that 2 years ago and people were like, no, they would never invade Iran. It does not look so impossible anymore.
Every time I think of Bushs' "when you see the mushroom cloud it will be too late" speech it makes my blood boil. I do agree we are too polarized, but I would also say that Bush has a lot to do with that condition!
I think it will be much better for this country when it is January 2009.
I belive there is a green party candidate this year and perhaps a libertarian, I agree that we should all go out and vote, even if you leave the vote for governor blank. There are alot of local elections that are very important to individual communities. I would encourage your friends to look at the local races and their importance as a reason to go out and vote.
I have to put more faith in what Devos has said about education and creating new jobs, the facts are that Granholm did not keep her promises to not cut education. If in four years Devos hasnt kept his promises, then fire him, I know I will not vote for a candidate who doesnt keep their word.
Joshua:
You were telling me the talking points from DeVos healthcare plan, but I have read his site and Granholm's site.
What I haven't heard are any speeches he has made except for the debates which didn't thrill me very much. I would like to know that kind of information, or background information that I might not know about. The first thing I do is read the material on the websites.
I was seriously thiking of writing in Jim Leyland, but I don't want to waste my vote.
Is it too late to start a campaign for him?
Devos will be in Jackson tonight, I will see if I can find out more about his ideas on health care, it is supposed to be an open forum.
Joshua:
That would be great, I would like to know if he will actually do anything to reform healthcare, because I think we need some serious changes and at least Granholm says she will try (although she did not do what she said she would do 4 years ago so I know I can't count on that).
Also, what will he do for people who cannot get healthcare (even if they have a job) and who cannot afford to get it on their own, or who have a job but are underinsured?
Thanks!
Somebody had a Jim Leyland for Governor sign at one of the Tigers/A's games in Oakland and then people in MI started saying, hey, that is a good idea!
If he really ran, I would vote for him!
With the job he did for the Tigers, I know he could turn Michigan around!
Did you guys see this?
http://www.mlive.com/newsflash.....wsmichigan
I did see that article, I was very impressed with both candidates for taking the chance to take the time to call and discuss this voters concerns. It showed alot of charcter and concern for the individual voter in this election.
See Cris and Pete, Jennifer and Dick think I am important even if you don't!
Well, I have made up my mind who I am going to vote for except for the Gubernatorial candidate, and no I am not voting one party line.
One more decision left.
There are still two weeks to go, keep looking into the candidates and try to get out to hear them speak. Good luck
Joshua:
I could still change my mind, but I am pretty well set on who I want to vote for other than the Gubernatorial candidate. This is the one that is giving me agida!
I do at least try to read their speeches, I seldom get there, that is why I come to places like this and ask questions!
I like to come here for the insults, and let me say I get alot of them here. But there are two more weeks and I am sure our televisions will be over run with political ads and interviews and pollsters. Who knows I could change my mind...... Just kidding.
Cynthia, you'll have to pardon me, but I don't recall attacking you...when was that? I asked where the 90 whatever jobs figure came from and suggested that I had possibly missed it in the second debate. Pete said basically the same, and simply asked for a link or quote.
You brought it up, so I assumed you'd know where in a transcript or wherever this figure could be located. Thanks for providing it, though I'm still not exactly sure why what she said was a problem for you.
As I read Granholms quote, she is saying that retraining programs are underway targeting these jobs. That was the whole point of bringing up the number, don't you think? Isn't the referenced retraining programs what you suggested as a top priority? I'm not sure just what she means in reference to "certification" though. Perhaps you know. If you do, tell me. Anyway, it seemed more like a point of agreement between you and Jenny than a point of contention.
Jeez, I thought that fact that you and/or your husband are job migrants to Michigan was a GOOD thing. How's that beating you over the head?
You're proof that if the jobs (employers) are here, the qualified people will show up to take them. Welcome.
The fact is, there are going to be a large number of people displaced from the "widget screwing" jobs in Michigan that will likely never find another comparable job. As I said, it's sad,but the die is cast, and the all too common notion that higher education is not really that important in Michigan is, again, stupid. But it's there, and will continue to be a hindrance to the state moving forward. When I read the statewide surveys published this spring in the Detroit papers concerning attitudes about education, I just about had a stroke. I was shocked that such a large number of folks still think it doesn't matter much.
a joke, Cynthia
I'm puzzled by what I feel is your fairly uncritical acceptance of the vague outlines Mr. DeVos is substituting for real plans, but, hey, I don't want to be accused of being critical again. I'm not...I'm just puzzled, and thinking that maybe I missed something. Maybe it's just that sweet talker Joshua
More bad news...Leyland just fell 20 points in the polls, and if the Tigers lose tomorrow night he's in the cellar. A political career nipped in the bud.
Keep up your search for answers and vote as you wish. I have no problem with that, though I may have questions for you as you go along. This is all part of making a critical decision, and a lot more interesting than parroting party-line info that's easily available at the political websites. I'll leave that up to Mr. clip n paste.
Which reminds me...I got a pretty good chuckle when, after reading Josh's post 253 where he pastes an article critical of Granholm written by a Nancy Hanover, I looked her up. It seems Josh clipped the piece from the WSWS....ever heard of it? Neither had I. Let me "paste" something from the site's page on it's purpose and philosophy:
The standpoint of this web site is one of revolutionary opposition to the capitalist market system. Its aim is the establishment of world socialism. It maintains that the vehicle for this transformation is the international working class, and that in the twenty-first century the fate of working people, and ultimately mankind as a whole, depends upon the success of the socialist revolution.
WSWS stands for World Socialist Web Site...just who I want to go to for my political insight...NOT! Do you suppose their numbers can be trusted?
It's a free country, and all citizens may take useful critical quotes wherever they can find them....I just thought it was funny as hell that a rampant DeVos booster was falling back on a communist/socialist website for ammunition to criticize the opposition. Does Dick know you look at those naughty Commie sites, Josh? LOL
Ah well, it's been a very long day...maybe I'm just giddy.
I've never belonged to a political party and never will, so I understand your interest in both sides. I have the same interest, but have made up my mind already. I guess I already know too much about DeVos.
Cris, just because an article is on a particular website does not mean the autho sponsort that website (even Fox has Alan Colmes), I am sure you can grasp that, but I am glad to see that you are taking the time to research all that I have said (I didnt know you care soo much!). Did you see the latest polls?? The gap has closed again, there is now a 5 point gap with 7 percent undecided (so Cynthia you are not alone). One other thing Cris, maybe Devos has been a little more vague in his rhetoric than Granholm after seeing how much crap she is putting up with in this campaign after making all those empty promises in 2002 (blueprint for Michigan, September 2002). I would reccomend going back and reading it, it may shed some light on how to BS a state to vote for you. Have a Great day!!!!
"I’ve never belonged to a political party and never will, so I understand your interest in both sides."
Cris likes to talk like he is open minded but this like alot of his other statements is completly untrue, he attacks me for quoting an author on a socialist website, He consistantly demonizes Devos, he has called me everything but his mother, here are a few examples of what Cris has to add to our discussion (Look I can cut and paste Cris):
"Granholm inherited a huge mess, replete with deferred debt and looted dedicated funds (thus, Prop. 1 is on the budget)AND inherited the Single Business Tax that Joshua loves to whine about. (He never did answer why Engler didn’t kill it when he had the power to do so)."
"Joshua…you’ve pretty much yapped yourself into irrelevance here.
You’re running on empty here, pal, and here comes that wall again."
"It would be SO disappointing to find out that while you were “serving my country” you were ignoring an equally important calling: casting an informed vote.
It’s my guess (?) you know nothing of the distant (4 whole years ago) past because you weren’t a Michigan resident, and perhaps you aren’t even one now…who knows? In any case, you’re shockingly (but not surprisingly) ignorant of the very recent political history of our great state. You admit as much by pathetically trying to use “serving my country” as an excuse for not knowing the simple,easily known, truth. This is sometimes called “stepping on your own tail”.
Of course, I may be wrong about you. Perhaps you’re just suffering from a bout of Amnesia brought on by questions you can’t answer, complicated by a bad case of political hypocrisy and/or ignorance. The latter complication would also explain your affection for people who think you, as a Michigan peon, are causing trouble by making too much money.
It’s a shame you apparently didn’t take advantage of the educational opportunities available to veterans, though. "
"It’s a pleasure to read someone besides El Joshbo. Common sense and civility are increasingly rare commodities."
"All that cut n paste must get you confused, Joshboy"
"If you think anyone mistakes your “copy wisdom” for fact, you’re deluding yourself.
Opinion is what this comment board is all about. The fact that you can’t seem to summon up one that makes much sense doesn’t change that, but it does explain why you’re so tiresome.
You can’t depend on Rush, Sean, and Devosforgovernor.com for everything, but you apparently don’t have much else to go on, so stay with it, I guess. I’ll just not expect you to have answers to questions that aren’t covered on Devos’s site."
"Maybe it’s just that sweet talker Joshua a joke, Cynthia"
I cant wait to see the Christmas card Cris sends me this year! I will be awaiting your next post with bated breath!!!!
Cris:
"As I read Granholms quote, she is saying that retraining programs are underway targeting these jobs. That was the whole point of bringing up the number, don’t you think? Isn’t the referenced retraining programs what you suggested as a top priority? I’m not sure just what she means in reference to “certification” though. Perhaps you know. If you do, tell me. Anyway, it seemed more like a point of agreement between you and Jenny than a point of contention."
Certificates prove specific skills. They could be in many areas. I am getting one in Technical Writing (even though I already do that) just to have the credential. There are certificates for expertise in specfic software, hardware, networking, programming languages, etc.
My problem is she has been saying that for the past 4 years, yet I don't see that number going down very much. I don't think they are doing enough, and I think they could and should be doing more so that this state can live up to its' potential, which I happen to think is very high. Anyway, she has not lost my vote yet, I am still undecided.
My major problem with it is that you have company xyz that goes and says we need this many employees then they train them. For that to work, you have to assume all of these companies will go to Michigan Works to get workers trained, but they are not, so why not? Is the training of high enough quality? Why has the number of unfilled high-tech positions stayed consistently high the entire time I have lived here (9.5 years)? I think there should be something much more aggressive. When I was laid off due to lack of work in 2001, I was not given any options to increase my education and I would have jumped on them if I had been. I think they just figured I could get another job. Well, eventually I did, but here is the thing, I could be doing work at a higher level than I am, and so can lots of other people, but that doesn't mean they have the money for school. I am pulling an 3.8 so far since I have put myself back in school. If the bottom line is we are responsible, then don't raise education costs.
My son (who goes to Northern) and his friend (who goes to Michigan Tech) both could not find a summer job last summer, and they can't find jobs near school either. It is getting very tough for the kids who need these jobs who have to compete with the displaced adults all for the same jobs.
You are ending up with a glut of people in entry or lower level jobs when a lot of those people could/should be being retrained, company sponsor or not, to be able to get better jobs. I consider this a serious problem.
I will answer more of your post as I have time today.
I think that Devos talks all game and he doesnt do what he says hes gonna do ....all he wants is to make him self look good .Devos is just gonna hurt the economy more
Devos is the same thing as Bush or any other Republican in my eyes. A big business, CEO, who is more concerned with his business than our environment, jobs, and education. Something that TV doesn't tell you is that there are always 2 people running. One a democrat, one a republican. Why? Because they have the most money from big business. Do you honestyl think someone is going to give money to someone they think is going to lose, like Raplh Nader? Big business wins everytime.
And while I have no problem with big buisness giving michigan jobs, I do have a problem with overlooking the environment, self-efficiency technology, and the bigger problem at hand:
INVADING FOREIGN COUNTRIES UNDER FALSE PRETENCES: TERRORISM! HA! >>>>>>>>>> OIL. I VOTED STRATIGHT DEMOCRATIC TICKET AND THAT IS WHY.
I am an aviation maintenance major at WMU, I am currently conducting my senior project on running biodiesel in a turbine engine. Biodiesel can be made from virgin soybean oil which we can grow in michigan. And the most available resource, used trap grease from restaurants. IDEA: MASS produce it, create jobs, don't rely on OPEC and government for gasoline, become more self-efficient, educate people how to make their own fuel, grow their own food, and stop being IGNORANT.
Natashia:
"I think that Devos talks all game and he doesnt do what he says hes gonna do ….all he wants is to make him self look good "
That is all Granhol has done for four years, enpty promises and we keep loosing jobs.
As for Aaron: I bet you have never had to face this countries enemies in foreign lands and see the hate in their eyes, instead you have been indoctrinated in your classroom to hate everything Republican, is Ward Churchill one of your professors? I bet you think September 11th was a governemt plot as well??? Conspirocy??? You need to wake up and see the real world we live in extends beyond your classroom walls and there are poeple out there who want to kill you simply because you are American. There is more to this than oil my friend, I suggest you get out and see what the real world is like, not regurgitate what you have been told.
p.s.
(Although I do agree with Bio Fuels, I think Hydrogen shows more promise as there is not a problem with supply that you would run into with bio fuels)
Just got home to read Joshua's humorless post..LOL. Can't even smile at yourself, buck-o? Wiggle all you want, but your source was busted in about 30 seconds. Commie-lover! LOL
he didn't select ONE quote where I called him any name. I merely made fun of his pretzel logic and rabid foaming-at-the-mouth cheerleading for Mr. Ponzi..I mean DeVos... and asked him questions that he continues to dodge. You're a seemingly endless source of mirth, Joshua!
When I devoted yet another 30 seconds, I discovered this, also written by Ms. Hanover and published in the July 2005 WSWS (and nowhere else that I can find), though other radical socialist/communist/anarchist sites use quotes, etc. from her WSWS article reviewing an Enron movie.
Ms. Hanover writes in her movie review for World Socialist Web Site:
"When we, as Marxists, “Ask Why” in relation to Enron, we do not remain at the level of personalities and morals. Rather, we examine fundamental trends in society that gave rise to these developments."
The bold highlight is mine. So are the giggles.
I guess you could be right, Joshboy...maybe she is writing for the Young Republican Digest or an Amway newsletter and WSWS is just picking it up and reprinting..LOL
Politics makes strange bedfellows...and none stranger (or funnier) than Joshua Devos-boy and that sultry vixen, the seducer of Republican mouthpieces, Nancy Hanover. I couldn't make this up!
Joshua says: "He consistantly demonizes Devos, he has called me everything but his mother, here are a few examples of what Cris has to add to our discussion (Look I can cut and paste Cris)"
The italics are mine. I think if anyone looks back on the previous posts (and, frankly, I can't be bothered) they'll see that, in fact, it's JOSHBOY who is slinging schoolyard names at anyone and everyone who doesn't think Dick is God. I notice in his clip n paste library of my brilliant repartee
Now...on to something that actually MATTERS.
Cynthia: It looks like the dream of Leyland for Governor is dead, for this election cycle anyway. As a lifelong Tiger fan, I had high hopes....but game 5 just ended.
It feels good to realize that they came from so far down, 3 years ago, to this. Losing a World Series hurts, but it sure felt great to be there.
Thanks for the info on certification. I don't work in a high tech field, but I thought it must have have some specific meaning.
Your next paragraph has me confused. You say "she has been saying that for the past 4 years, yet I don't see that number going down very much". In your next paragraph you say "Why has the number of unfilled high-tech positions stayed consistently high the entire time I have lived here (9.5 years)? What number are you referring to? It sounds like you're referrring to the 95k jobs unfilled we were talking about yesterday, but Granholm only cited that number recently. Apparently you've been following this sector for 9+ years, and think there have always been tons of jobs going wanting? Am I correct here? Where do the numbers come from, and, if this number of high-tech jobs are available, why does Dice.com have such a comparatively small list of jobs available? Let me paste my 271 post again:
"I see, in reading back to Q1 in the Dice Detroit report, that the “leading technology career site” had a modest monthly gain in listings, up about 1 %, to just over 1,000 listings. Either the “leading” site is puny, or there is more to the 97,000 jobs gone wanting. I can’t explain it, just find it curious. The same publication also says that Michigan lost 5,200 net tech jobs last year. Though most were probably in auto related positions, that sounds like a need for employers to me."
Until you posted it, I had no idea this business (Dice) existed, so I can't begin to understand why, if there are so many good high tech jobs out there (and they are the leading site), that they have such a small number of listings and also say that MI lost 5,200 net tech jobs last year. As I said above, I'm puzzled by this. In looking back at a few issues on the web site I couldn't find any kind of running tally of tech jobs open and available except those they call their listings. Also, when you were laid off for lack of work, weren't there lots of those jobs for you to take asap? You're clearly educated and trained. Opinion, please?
Please realize, I'm not trying to be antagonistic here....I'm just looking to make sense of something I currently don't understand. You and your husband are in the field, I am not, and I'd be grateful for some insight into this.
Granholm says these jobs are available, YOU say there are lots of unfilled jobs, I have no reason to think this is not the case, but I'd like to know more from you about it.
As an employer, I think I'm safe in saying that there are many, many thousands of jobs available in Michigan in all fields. This is a constant fact, just like the fact that there is no such thing as zero unemployment. I think there will always be a three to four percent unemployment rate, regardless if it's in Michigan or Heaven. It's just the way it is in the world, and the same is true for open jobs.
I don't think every person who is laid off needs to be educated into another job by the State or Federal government. As you suggest, the bottom line is: you're responsible, as am I. Given the extraordinary situation of mass layoffs and buyouts in our state, something clearly needs to be done to moderate the effects of this rough time.
Such efforts are bound to be aimed, for right or wrong, at the most needy and least prepared for change. Someone likely made a judgement about you that you were smart, educated, motivated and could take care of yourself. I'm sure this didn't make being laid off any easier for you, and I'm sorry for that stressful event in your life, but it seems they were right. Weren't they?
I live in a resort area in NW Lower Michigan. There is no such thing here as a college kid without a summer job who wants to have a job. Tell your son and his friend to try Traverse City next summer. They can have their pick of dozens of jobs. I'm not sure about what they can find during the school year in the UP, but being there is their choice, and the employment situation up there is well known by everyone.
Until just a few years ago I employed over 100 people each summer, and never, ever filled every position I had. I always had jobs available (none at minimum wage) and so do my succesors in that business. This is an area, unlike high tech, where I DO have deep and long experience.
More later...I have to grieve for my Tigers now.
"
One more thing: Cynthia writes in post 316:
"When I was laid off due to lack of work in 2001, I was not given any options to increase my education and I would have jumped on them if I had been. I think they just figured I could get another job. Well, eventually I did, but here is the thing, I could be doing work at a higher level than I am, and so can lots of other people, but that doesn’t mean they have the money for school.
The italics are mine. Cynthia, may I respectfully point out that, in the year 2001, Michigan was in the 12th year of the conservative, pro-business Engler administration? Jennifer Granholm was not elected until November of 2002.
This simple fact makes me wonder a bit about your memory when you state in another post, # 283:
"Education needs to be a priority, but as you pointed out, we don’t know what DeVos would do. I do know that Republicans are usually good about the re-training thing so I assume there would be more support for that from a Republican, but I can’t know that for sure.
So, that one goes in the negative column for Jennifer for me."
I wonder what leads you to say that "Republicans are usually good about the re-training thing" when your own rather disappointing encounter with the State during a lay-off was during the third term of a Republican Governor. In an earlier post you express much disappointment and frustration with the state agencies tasked with helping the unemployed, as well, but I'm not going to bother reposting that. But this was all during Engler's administration.
Can you give me somes insight into this incongruity? How does your personal experience lead you to put job training into the NEGATIVE column for Granholm?
As averse as I am to cut n paste (Joshua's forte) I thought this was relevant. It comes from the Dept. of Labor & Economic Growth and is a summary of the first years accomplishments of the Michigan Opportunity Partnership, just ONE of the Jobs programs underway in our state.
112,000+ people placed into jobs through Michigan's Workforce System
32,000+ people enrolled in training
Employer Job Pledge Drive
» 45,000+ jobs pledged; 31,000+ people placed into jobs
» 8,600+ employers received additional help finding workers
» 100+ job fairs & open houses with 1,400+ employers and
20,000+ participating
Four Regional Skill Alliances piloted seven accelerated training programs; trained/placed 271 people; 100% completion rate; 80% employment rate
$17 million for accelerated training of more than 1,200 individuals in health care (RNs LPNs, allied health professionals) to address health care shortages
More cut and paste for Cris:
As I have said over and over again, beware of polls. This late in the game numbers will be jumping up and down as voters finalize how they are going to vote.
However, the poll is too good not to share. It shows DeVos and Granholm tied!!!
That’s’ right, a recent survey shows the race for governor is tied at 47 for DeVos and 47 for Granholm. With 2 percent undecided and the balance voting for 3rd party candidates.
Survey completed by Voter Roll Call of 526 likely voters 10-26-06. The margin of error on the survey plus or minus 4.4 percent.
If the election for Governor were today, and you were standing in the voting booth right now, who would you vote for? Republican Dick DeVos? Democrat Jennifer Granholm? Green Party candidate Douglas Campbell? Libertarian Gregory Creswell? Or U.S. Taxpayers Party candidate Bhagwan Dashairya?
47% DeVos (R)
47% Granholm (D)
3% Campbell (G)
1% Creswell (L)
0% Dashairya (UST)
2% Undecided
Here is the source so you dont have to do any searching:
http://breakingnews.redstate.c.....e_momentum
Fact Check for Joshua:
Voter Roll Call is an ELECTION PHONE CALLING FIRM. They call people to get out the vote and do other election related things. They are NOT a polling firm. Under their services they do not list polling:
http://www.voterrollcall.com/Services.htm
Trumpeting their poll positively STINKS of desperation. However, when money fails and the REAL pollsters agree that the candidate is sliding, it's time to pull out the lies, right?
Aaron:
"I am an aviation maintenance major at WMU, I am currently conducting my senior project on running biodiesel in a turbine engine. Biodiesel can be made from virgin soybean oil which we can grow in michigan. And the most available resource, used trap grease from restaurants. IDEA: MASS produce it, create jobs, don’t rely on OPEC and government for gasoline, become more self-efficient, educate people how to make their own fuel, grow their own food, and stop being IGNORANT."
So everyone who has a different opinion that you do is ignorant? I am glad you know everything, now YOU can save the world! What you are working on is good, but you are being much too simplistic, it is just not as easy as you are making out to be. For one thing, how do you make fuels out of other things like corn or soybeans without fossil fuels? It would be nice, but can you do that? Where are you getting the energy from? Tell me you are not using any conventionally generated electric, or oil, or gas to make your fuel, then you might impress me.
One other question, if it is about oil, why aren't we taking any oil from Iraq except for what the troops in Iraq need?
Natasha:
I think that Devos talks all game and he doesnt do what he says hes gonna do ….all he wants is to make him self look good .Devos is just gonna hurt the economy more"
I think all politicians do that! The vote all incumbents out movement has a point, just show them we want change, we want some action, period! Even though I think they have a good point, I don't think I can vote that way, I think I will definitely vote for Stabenow for example. I am not voting till election day.
I voted straight Dem last time mainly becuase I was so ticked about Iraq (but also the pandering to big business). I can pretty much guarantee I won't do that this time, but for DC, I am definitely going with the Dems.
Cris:
"Can you give me somes insight into this incongruity? How does your personal experience lead you to put job training into the NEGATIVE column for Granholm?"
I mentioned my personal experience and maybe I should not have. I say that because I have not seen the UI figure getting better (but I have seen it getting worse) in the past 4 years, so I am going by that. You are quite correct that I don't know what my experience as far as re-training would have been with Granholm in office, but it does not seem to me from the UI numbers that it has changed much. The jobs have been there and there and the situation hasn't changed much in the last 10 years, that much is obvious.
My experience with Republicans (probably more from when I lived in NJ), is that they would rather give people a credit or something to go to community college and get certified in something knowing they will get more tax revenue in the end.
As far as Engler, it seems he was so corrupt I don't know that he would be a good example. I would think of more of a Joe Knollenberg as my idea of a good Conservative. Teddy Roosevelt, REAL conservatives, not corrupt politicians who just want to fill their pockets.
Cris:
"As averse as I am to cut n paste (Joshua’s forte) I thought this was relevant. It comes from the Dept. of Labor & Economic Growth and is a summary of the first years accomplishments of the Michigan Opportunity Partnership, just ONE of the Jobs programs underway in our state."
It would have been nice had it been started sooner, but it does seem to be helping according to those numbers. My only question would be, if 112,000 people were placed, why is that not reflected in the UI (it should be noticeable that is quite a high number) and why in fact is the UI higher not lower this year?
Joshua:
Did you get any answers from DeVos? I am assuming you didn't since you did not post anything.
Joshua, Thanks, but I can read Saul's blog as well as the next guy. I wonder what an actual, impartial poll would say?
The one you cite (see Pete's comment) is a morale booster for DeVos campaign workers and fans. I'm not among either of those groups, so I'll wait for a real poll, conducted by a professional poll organization.
I see by looking at their site they provide all sorts of services to campaigns...they're probably the people who auto-called me two or three times after each debate with faked-up "conversation" about how BAD Governor Granholm did.
I wonder how much they charge for inventing a positive poll for a candidate? We'll never know, as that's just between Dick and his checkbook.
Joshboy...you REALLY need to vet your sources before you start posting this stuff. Between Red Nancy the Commie propagandist and Roll Call "polls" you're looking a little silly.
Given the fact that DeVos is likely to spend a record amount of money, a LOT of it his own, I think we'll see a down-to-the-wire race.
Elections have been bought by zillionairs before, and it could happen here...I just hope MI voters can see thru the greenback fueled smoke screen.
Cynthia, I'll talk about your posts later...working now.
Cris do you discriminate against everyone who doesnt think like you?
Cris: I just took a poll at polling point (I joined so they send me polls) that asked what state you were from then specifics about who you were voting for and stuff.
I did it Friday and I imagine it should be out sometime this week.
That one should be accurate.
In another poll there, you ranked your state's economy. Michigan was not only dead last but percentage wise way below everyone else.
http://www.pollingpoint.com/re.....727-2.html
Oh please Joshboy..discriminate? Against whom?
I thought someone who throws around the "you libs" "you dems" lines from talk radio hucksters could deal with some criticizm...you've certainly passed a lot of it out.
Rush and Sean not have any new lines for you?
If all your info comes from them or a few of the other sites you've used (and now probably wish you hadn't), I can't see how anyone can take you seriously. You clearly haven't got that "wheat from the chaff" thing down yet, as proved by your embrace (clueless or not??) of Communist/Socialist propaganda as talking points for an anti-Granholm post.
I'm sooo sowy if I hurt your feewings...
You're like the schoolyard bully who goes crying home to Mommy when someone actually returns a punch.
The fact is, a lot of my good friends disagree with me, and I with them. That's all well and good...honest disagreement is fine by me. We talk, argue, prove and disprove, and in the end are still close friends.
The difference is that THEY don't duck the hard questions, and don't depend on Rush, Sean, Dick, or anyone else to tell them what they think.
And their not whiners.
Cynthia: I don't have a chance right now to look at the polling link, but right off the bat I've got to say that any poll that allows people to enter themselves into it is suspect.
Polling and surveying is a scientific pursuit, and no reputable poll that I know of would accept people volunteering to be part of one.
I know a little about this because my wife owned and operated a survey and research field service for some years, and also ran surveys and worker training for some national firms for both business and political jobs. She did exit polling in SW Michigan as well for both presidential and off year elections as well.
They were scrupulous about how info and opinions were collected and disallowed any reports that had even a hint of deviation from accepted scientific procedures.
I'm sure the polls you speak of are going to be interesting, but only for curiousities sake in my opinion.
There should be no lack of polling data by scientific, professional firms in this highly contested election.
Cris:
Actually I think polling point is pretty reputable Cris. I also fill out surveys for Zogby and Market Opinion Research (also respected).
Who do you think they survey?
LOL, you are funny!
Cris:
One more thing Cris, you don't just go, you sign up to fill out surveys for them (although they don't pay).
I will only do the state of the country/political type surveys, I avoid the marketing ones (which can be very annoyingly long and way too personal for my taste).
How else are you supposed to survey people who are going to vote if you don't have a representative sample of the voting population?
First, I apologize for the long post. I hope you find it informative.
Earlier today, I heard on the radio “how bad the state economy was”, “how the state was hemorrhaging of over the loss of over 200,000 manufacturing jobs”, and “how the super high costs of going to college were impacting students”. I thought they were talking about Michigan but they were really talking about Ohio. At first, I was taken back - I suddenly realized that I had actually believed that these issues were only in Michigan.
It is important to remember that Ohio is a state dominated by a Republican Governor and a Republican Legislature. Yet, Ohio is having the same problems we are in Michigan. If Dick Posthumus had been elected for Governor in 2002– I’m convinced that this would Michigan would still be struggling with the same issues.
Knowing this; two undeniable facts emerge:
1) The issues really are much bigger than a single Governor, and
2) Over 90% of the politicians involved with these issues are, in fact, Republicans.
Examine the following excerpt. It sounds like it came from devos but it is a point being made by the Democratic Party in Ohio.
Brown (the Democratic challenger) pointed out that college tuition has more than doubled in Ohio since 2000. The state has one of the highest exodus rates of college grads in the nation. “People my age are worried about whether their kids will have the opportunity to stay and raise their grandchildren here,” Brown said. Brown has called for a $3,000-a-year tuition tax credit, and he co-sponsored legislation to increase the maximum Pell Grant to $7,000 and to cut student loan interest rates in half. His opponent (incumbent republican dewine) has voted for Bush’s cuts in funding for higher education, and against increasing student loans and college assistance programs.
Just a quick reminder about a governor's role in determining tuition costs for state universities. A governor does not have exclusive power over public funding given to universities or tuition costs. The State Legislature, namely the Higher Education Budget Committee, determines the amount of public funding that is given to public universities. Oh, by the way, The Higher Education Budget Committee is chaired by Sen. Michael Goschka, R-Brant. Yep, that’s right – the person that steers the legislation which determines the public funds that universities receive is yet another Republican. Don’t you just love politics…
Oh, here is another historical fact that the Michigan GOP doesn’t want you to remember. Back in 2004, universities were backing Granholm’s education plan. I remember how this was going to be a HUGE win for college students and Governor Granholm. The universities had already decided to back Granholm’s plan they just needed to see what the Republican controlled Higher Education Budget Committee was going to offer.
'U' agrees to tuition ceiling
From The [University Of] Michigan Daily, 3/19/2004
The University will most likely hold in-state tuition at or below the rate of inflation for the next academic year, University President Mary Sue Coleman said at yesterday’s Board of Regents meeting. She did not offer concrete plans for out-of-state tuition, but stressed that the administration will strive for moderation.
The decision came as a result of Gov. Jennifer Granholm’s budget proposal during her State of the State Address in January. Under the proposal, the governor urged universities to keep tuition at or below the rate of inflation, about 2.4 percent. In return, Granholm said the universities will receive back 3 percent of the 5-percent budget cut made in December 2003. Since the University of Michigan’s funding was cut 10 percent earlier last year, its cumulative cut would be 12 percent.
By opting for Granholm’s proposal, Coleman said the University will save about $20 million in state funds.
If universities decided to raise tuition above the rate of inflation, then the state would levy an additional 3-percent penalty, resulting in an 8 percent budget cut for fiscal year 2004-2005. The cumulative cut over two years would be a more severe 18 percent.
“We support the efforts of the governor and the Legislature to keep public higher education affordable for Michigan families,” Coleman said.
The University’s decision is contingent upon what specific tuition increases the Michigan State Legislature presents. If the Legislature changes its plans or determines that the state budget cannot support the costs of this proposal, Coleman said the University will have to re-evaluate its choice to adhere to the plan.
Both Michigan State University and Wayne State University accepted the governor’s request in January and plan to hold tuition at or below the inflation rate for January.
Needless to say, the State legislature, (again this is the Higher Education Budget Committee which was headed by Republican Sen. Michael Goschka) did change its plans and provided a budget that was unacceptable to the Universities.
Granholm had a great education plan.
Universities liked Granholm’s plan.
The Republicans killed Granholm’s plan.
The rest is history.
Hindsight being 20/20, it is beginning to look more and more like the Republicans were playing politics with our kids college educations.
I am soooo glad that I seek out truth. It’s too bad people like Joshua don’t care about truth and settle for rhetoric.
The good news is that more of Governor Granholm’s plans are starting to bear fruit and Michigan is well on its way to one incredible recovery. Governor Granholm has already started investing $2 billion in emerging high-tech firms and accelerating state construction jobs to employ 40,000 workers over the next three years. 40,000 workers with lots more jobs to come! AWESOME!
It will be a shame to give devos credit for Governor Granholm’s success.
- Beach
http://www.realclearpolitics.c.....ce-13.html
The site above provides a ton of poll results, from many, many organizations and spanning many months. I'm not sure it will show up as a link..you might have to copy and paste.
It's possible to see the effect of DeVos's huge media buys earlier in the campaign, and, I think, the effect of his shaky performance in the debates.
As depressing as it may be to Josh, it looks as though Granholm is firming up her support, not losing it as Republican Chair Saul Anuzi's poll suggests. Apparently you don't get what you pay for in this case.
That being said, the Gov. race is going to go down to the wire.
I think the volunteer internet polling is very interesting..maybe the wave of the future in some ways, but then again traded opinion contracts work as well. As I read explanations from polling firms, they are mostly using internet polling as a way to contact people not connected to traditional phone systems and are folding these results into a larger whole. Is it, alone, an answer? I doubt it and remain unconvinced. I'll be interested to watch and learn.
The Michigan chart as it appears on RCP:
Did I link that correctly? guess I'll find out. I am NOT a 'puter wizard! LOL
Guess not! Here is the chart:
http://www.realclearpolitics.c.....poll_id=13
Very interesting seeing it graphed out this way.
Beach: Thanks for your illuminating post. I think I referenced the
GOP Legislature"s political shenanigans throughout the last four years in an earlier post, but you've nailed it right down to specifics.
Once again, Joshboy is made to look silly with his quacking about Granholm being against education spending. That's what you get for listening to Communist propaganda, I guess.
They've been running scared of Granholm since Day One...jeez, you'd think they didn't know she was born in Canada and, thus, can't run for President. Unless, of course, the AH-Nold amendment ever passes!
The Legislature has fought her at nearly every turn, and cynically attempted to thwart efforts to get Michigan back on track.
Education funding is but one example, but it's probably the most heinous. The SBT BS is another example, though not nearly as disgusting. The only reason the SBT was killed the way it was was for political gain by the GOP, and all so DeVos could say "Hey, I'll figure it out after I'm elected".
I know this is true, because a Republican State Rep. admitted it to me over a cold Labatts. They're afraid her coattails will get big enough to bring along a Democratic Legislature in future elections, so they've done what they can to thwart her plans.
And we all suffer as a result.
Thanks again Beach!
Cynthia: That inflation indexed tuition limit suuurrrre would have helped some unemployed folks go back to college. Don'tcha think?
Someone wrote a post earlier about not wanting to vote because it would be a waste. In my opinion, the only way to waste a vote is to NOT vote. Once the polls have closed and you have not cast your ballot - well that is a wasted vote! Too bad, you missed your opportunity.
Please, I don't care who you vote for - please, please, please vote.
- Beach
As for Proposal 3 which would allow then hunting of Morning Doves.
I just heard a morning dove call on the radio. As fate would have it, this is the only bird call that I know how to do. Honest! I never even knew that bird call was for morning doves until today. I would have fun doing the call while I was raking leaves in my backyard and the birds would call back. Now I know.
These birds are my peeps, man! Don't shoot my peeps! I'm gonna vote no on Proposal 3.
- Beach
Cris, what is tha name of your company?? Where is it at??
Beach:
Except I kept tabs on the UI and Ohio is #43 while we are #50. We have consistently been last or next to it on the list. Alaska (which used to be last consistently) has consistenly surpassed us for about the last year and Mississippi is last because it is reccovering from Katrina, it never used to be that low pre-Katrina.
MI is much worse than Ohio, which is bad. The midwest in general is depressed economically, so I guess you can get on that bandwagon and say, see, it is not so bad just here, it is everywhere!
Beach, it has been and continues to be much worse here. I have been watching the UI for years (don't know why I just have) so I know how consistently bad it has been here, and as bad as Ohio has it, they are still doing much better than we are.
Joshua:
You never answered me about getting any answers from DeVos.
I am leaning more and more towards Granholm, at least she is trying to do something.
Cynthia, I neer got a chance to ask my question to Devos, but I am not here to convince you who to vote for, just to point out the problems I see with Granholm. I this Liberal post that discussed more of Granholms education plan for Michigan:
http://liberalorder.typepad.co.....ranho.html
Cynthia, let me just remind you that, and she has made promises in the past, and had great ideas for Michigan but she fails to deliver. That is why I refuse to vote for her again. If Devos gets eleted and fails to produce I will vote him out as well.
You are soo right Cris, Granholm is for education, especially during election time. She wants to give college aged (voters) $4000 per year for college as a part of her new plan for higher education? That means that the college students can give that money to any school they like?? Methodist schools or Catholic schools?? But as far as K-12 she is anti-school choice because state money would go to religous schools, so they have to no choice, just take what is offered in your community. If you think about it, it becomes clear. Granholm does not view our children as the "customers" of education. She views teachers and college students as potential voters. Strong on education?? No, just politically minded.
Being a computer geek I see 'UI' and think User Interface. What does it mean here, please?
UI = Unemployement Index?
350 comments is about all the server can stand. Please continue discussion at Granholm vs. DeVos: 2006 Michigan Governor Debates, part 2.
Thanks!!