Comments on: Granholm vs. DeVos: 2006 Michigan Governor Debates

By: farlane

farlane — Tue, 31 Oct 2006 16:14:14 +0000

350 comments is about all the server can stand. Please continue discussion at Granholm vs. DeVos: 2006 Michigan Governor Debates, part 2.

Thanks!!

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By: Beach

Beach — Tue, 31 Oct 2006 16:00:16 +0000

UI = Unemployement Index?

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By: Beach

Beach — Tue, 31 Oct 2006 15:58:44 +0000

Being a computer geek I see 'UI' and think User Interface. What does it mean here, please?

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By: Joshua

Joshua — Tue, 31 Oct 2006 15:21:57 +0000

You are soo right Cris, Granholm is for education, especially during election time. She wants to give college aged (voters) $4000 per year for college as a part of her new plan for higher education? That means that the college students can give that money to any school they like?? Methodist schools or Catholic schools?? But as far as K-12 she is anti-school choice because state money would go to religous schools, so they have to no choice, just take what is offered in your community. If you think about it, it becomes clear. Granholm does not view our children as the "customers" of education. She views teachers and college students as potential voters. Strong on education?? No, just politically minded.

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By: Joshua

Joshua — Tue, 31 Oct 2006 15:03:07 +0000

Cynthia, let me just remind you that, and she has made promises in the past, and had great ideas for Michigan but she fails to deliver. That is why I refuse to vote for her again. If Devos gets eleted and fails to produce I will vote him out as well.

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By: Joshua

Joshua — Tue, 31 Oct 2006 14:56:18 +0000

Cynthia, I neer got a chance to ask my question to Devos, but I am not here to convince you who to vote for, just to point out the problems I see with Granholm. I this Liberal post that discussed more of Granholms education plan for Michigan:

http://liberalorder.typepad.com/the_liberal_order/2005/05/jennifer_granho.html

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By: Cynthia

Cynthia — Tue, 31 Oct 2006 14:42:09 +0000

Joshua:

You never answered me about getting any answers from DeVos.

I am leaning more and more towards Granholm, at least she is trying to do something.

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By: Cynthia

Cynthia — Tue, 31 Oct 2006 14:32:34 +0000

Beach:

Except I kept tabs on the UI and Ohio is #43 while we are #50. We have consistently been last or next to it on the list. Alaska (which used to be last consistently) has consistenly surpassed us for about the last year and Mississippi is last because it is reccovering from Katrina, it never used to be that low pre-Katrina.

MI is much worse than Ohio, which is bad. The midwest in general is depressed economically, so I guess you can get on that bandwagon and say, see, it is not so bad just here, it is everywhere!

Beach, it has been and continues to be much worse here. I have been watching the UI for years (don't know why I just have) so I know how consistently bad it has been here, and as bad as Ohio has it, they are still doing much better than we are.

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By: Joshua

Joshua — Tue, 31 Oct 2006 12:19:39 +0000

Cris, what is tha name of your company?? Where is it at??

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By: Beach

Beach — Tue, 31 Oct 2006 04:54:43 +0000

As for Proposal 3 which would allow then hunting of Morning Doves.

I just heard a morning dove call on the radio. As fate would have it, this is the only bird call that I know how to do. Honest! I never even knew that bird call was for morning doves until today. I would have fun doing the call while I was raking leaves in my backyard and the birds would call back. Now I know.

These birds are my peeps, man! Don't shoot my peeps! I'm gonna vote no on Proposal 3.

- Beach

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By: Beach

Beach — Tue, 31 Oct 2006 04:40:45 +0000

Someone wrote a post earlier about not wanting to vote because it would be a waste. In my opinion, the only way to waste a vote is to NOT vote. Once the polls have closed and you have not cast your ballot - well that is a wasted vote! Too bad, you missed your opportunity.

Please, I don't care who you vote for - please, please, please vote.

- Beach

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By: Cris

Cris — Tue, 31 Oct 2006 04:01:21 +0000

Guess not! Here is the chart:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/charts/?poll_id=13
Very interesting seeing it graphed out this way.

Beach: Thanks for your illuminating post. I think I referenced the
GOP Legislature"s political shenanigans throughout the last four years in an earlier post, but you've nailed it right down to specifics.
Once again, Joshboy is made to look silly with his quacking about Granholm being against education spending. That's what you get for listening to Communist propaganda, I guess.
They've been running scared of Granholm since Day One...jeez, you'd think they didn't know she was born in Canada and, thus, can't run for President. Unless, of course, the AH-Nold amendment ever passes!
The Legislature has fought her at nearly every turn, and cynically attempted to thwart efforts to get Michigan back on track.
Education funding is but one example, but it's probably the most heinous. The SBT BS is another example, though not nearly as disgusting. The only reason the SBT was killed the way it was was for political gain by the GOP, and all so DeVos could say "Hey, I'll figure it out after I'm elected".
I know this is true, because a Republican State Rep. admitted it to me over a cold Labatts. They're afraid her coattails will get big enough to bring along a Democratic Legislature in future elections, so they've done what they can to thwart her plans.
And we all suffer as a result.
Thanks again Beach!
Cynthia: That inflation indexed tuition limit suuurrrre would have helped some unemployed folks go back to college. Don'tcha think?

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By: Cris

Cris — Tue, 31 Oct 2006 03:26:06 +0000

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2006/governor/mi/michigan_governor_race-13.html
The site above provides a ton of poll results, from many, many organizations and spanning many months. I'm not sure it will show up as a link..you might have to copy and paste.
It's possible to see the effect of DeVos's huge media buys earlier in the campaign, and, I think, the effect of his shaky performance in the debates.
As depressing as it may be to Josh, it looks as though Granholm is firming up her support, not losing it as Republican Chair Saul Anuzi's poll suggests. Apparently you don't get what you pay for in this case.
That being said, the Gov. race is going to go down to the wire.
I think the volunteer internet polling is very interesting..maybe the wave of the future in some ways, but then again traded opinion contracts work as well. As I read explanations from polling firms, they are mostly using internet polling as a way to contact people not connected to traditional phone systems and are folding these results into a larger whole. Is it, alone, an answer? I doubt it and remain unconvinced. I'll be interested to watch and learn.
The Michigan chart as it appears on RCP:

Did I link that correctly? guess I'll find out. I am NOT a 'puter wizard! LOL

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By: Beach

Beach — Tue, 31 Oct 2006 03:23:10 +0000

First, I apologize for the long post. I hope you find it informative.

Earlier today, I heard on the radio ‚Äúhow bad the state economy was‚Äù, ‚Äúhow the state was hemorrhaging of over the loss of over 200,000 manufacturing jobs‚Äù, and ‚Äúhow the super high costs of going to college were impacting students‚Äù. I thought they were talking about Michigan but they were really talking about Ohio. At first, I was taken back - I suddenly realized that I had actually believed that these issues were only in Michigan.

It is important to remember that Ohio is a state dominated by a Republican Governor and a Republican Legislature. Yet, Ohio is having the same problems we are in Michigan. If Dick Posthumus had been elected for Governor in 2002‚Äì I‚Äôm convinced that this would Michigan would still be struggling with the same issues.

Knowing this; two undeniable facts emerge:
1) The issues really are much bigger than a single Governor, and
2) Over 90% of the politicians involved with these issues are, in fact, Republicans.

Examine the following excerpt. It sounds like it came from devos but it is a point being made by the Democratic Party in Ohio.

Brown (the Democratic challenger) pointed out that college tuition has more than doubled in Ohio since 2000. The state has one of the highest exodus rates of college grads in the nation. ‚ÄúPeople my age are worried about whether their kids will have the opportunity to stay and raise their grandchildren here,‚Äù Brown said. Brown has called for a $3,000-a-year tuition tax credit, and he co-sponsored legislation to increase the maximum Pell Grant to $7,000 and to cut student loan interest rates in half. His opponent (incumbent republican dewine) has voted for Bush‚Äôs cuts in funding for higher education, and against increasing student loans and college assistance programs.

Just a quick reminder about a governor's role in determining tuition costs for state universities. A governor does not have exclusive power over public funding given to universities or tuition costs. The State Legislature, namely the Higher Education Budget Committee, determines the amount of public funding that is given to public universities. Oh, by the way, The Higher Education Budget Committee is chaired by Sen. Michael Goschka, R-Brant. Yep, that‚Äôs right ‚Äì the person that steers the legislation which determines the public funds that universities receive is yet another Republican. Don‚Äôt you just love politics‚Ä¶

Oh, here is another historical fact that the Michigan GOP doesn‚Äôt want you to remember. Back in 2004, universities were backing Granholm‚Äôs education plan. I remember how this was going to be a HUGE win for college students and Governor Granholm. The universities had already decided to back Granholm‚Äôs plan they just needed to see what the Republican controlled Higher Education Budget Committee was going to offer.

'U' agrees to tuition ceiling
From The [University Of] Michigan Daily, 3/19/2004
The University will most likely hold in-state tuition at or below the rate of inflation for the next academic year, University President Mary Sue Coleman said at yesterday‚Äôs Board of Regents meeting. She did not offer concrete plans for out-of-state tuition, but stressed that the administration will strive for moderation.

The decision came as a result of Gov. Jennifer Granholm‚Äôs budget proposal during her State of the State Address in January. Under the proposal, the governor urged universities to keep tuition at or below the rate of inflation, about 2.4 percent. In return, Granholm said the universities will receive back 3 percent of the 5-percent budget cut made in December 2003. Since the University of Michigan‚Äôs funding was cut 10 percent earlier last year, its cumulative cut would be 12 percent.

By opting for Granholm‚Äôs proposal, Coleman said the University will save about $20 million in state funds.

If universities decided to raise tuition above the rate of inflation, then the state would levy an additional 3-percent penalty, resulting in an 8 percent budget cut for fiscal year 2004-2005. The cumulative cut over two years would be a more severe 18 percent.

‚ÄúWe support the efforts of the governor and the Legislature to keep public higher education affordable for Michigan families,‚Äù Coleman said.

The University‚Äôs decision is contingent upon what specific tuition increases the Michigan State Legislature presents. If the Legislature changes its plans or determines that the state budget cannot support the costs of this proposal, Coleman said the University will have to re-evaluate its choice to adhere to the plan.

Both Michigan State University and Wayne State University accepted the governor‚Äôs request in January and plan to hold tuition at or below the inflation rate for January.

Needless to say, the State legislature, (again this is the Higher Education Budget Committee which was headed by Republican Sen. Michael Goschka) did change its plans and provided a budget that was unacceptable to the Universities.

Granholm had a great education plan.
Universities liked Granholm‚Äôs plan.
The Republicans killed Granholm‚Äôs plan.
The rest is history.

Hindsight being 20/20, it is beginning to look more and more like the Republicans were playing politics with our kids college educations.

I am soooo glad that I seek out truth. It‚Äôs too bad people like Joshua don‚Äôt care about truth and settle for rhetoric.

The good news is that more of Governor Granholm‚Äôs plans are starting to bear fruit and Michigan is well on its way to one incredible recovery. Governor Granholm has already started investing $2 billion in emerging high-tech firms and accelerating state construction jobs to employ 40,000 workers over the next three years. 40,000 workers with lots more jobs to come! AWESOME!

It will be a shame to give devos credit for Governor Granholm‚Äôs success.

- Beach

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By: Cynthia

Cynthia — Mon, 30 Oct 2006 22:26:45 +0000

Cris:

One more thing Cris, you don't just go, you sign up to fill out surveys for them (although they don't pay).

I will only do the state of the country/political type surveys, I avoid the marketing ones (which can be very annoyingly long and way too personal for my taste).

How else are you supposed to survey people who are going to vote if you don't have a representative sample of the voting population?

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By: Cynthia

Cynthia — Mon, 30 Oct 2006 22:22:10 +0000

Cris:

Actually I think polling point is pretty reputable Cris. I also fill out surveys for Zogby and Market Opinion Research (also respected).

Who do you think they survey?

LOL, you are funny!

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By: Cris

Cris — Mon, 30 Oct 2006 21:33:16 +0000

Cynthia: I don't have a chance right now to look at the polling link, but right off the bat I've got to say that any poll that allows people to enter themselves into it is suspect.
Polling and surveying is a scientific pursuit, and no reputable poll that I know of would accept people volunteering to be part of one.
I know a little about this because my wife owned and operated a survey and research field service for some years, and also ran surveys and worker training for some national firms for both business and political jobs. She did exit polling in SW Michigan as well for both presidential and off year elections as well.
They were scrupulous about how info and opinions were collected and disallowed any reports that had even a hint of deviation from accepted scientific procedures.
I'm sure the polls you speak of are going to be interesting, but only for curiousities sake in my opinion.
There should be no lack of polling data by scientific, professional firms in this highly contested election.

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By: Cris

Cris — Mon, 30 Oct 2006 21:21:44 +0000

Oh please Joshboy..discriminate? Against whom?
I thought someone who throws around the "you libs" "you dems" lines from talk radio hucksters could deal with some criticizm...you've certainly passed a lot of it out.
Rush and Sean not have any new lines for you?
If all your info comes from them or a few of the other sites you've used (and now probably wish you hadn't), I can't see how anyone can take you seriously. You clearly haven't got that "wheat from the chaff" thing down yet, as proved by your embrace (clueless or not??) of Communist/Socialist propaganda as talking points for an anti-Granholm post.
I'm sooo sowy if I hurt your feewings...
You're like the schoolyard bully who goes crying home to Mommy when someone actually returns a punch.
The fact is, a lot of my good friends disagree with me, and I with them. That's all well and good...honest disagreement is fine by me. We talk, argue, prove and disprove, and in the end are still close friends.
The difference is that THEY don't duck the hard questions, and don't depend on Rush, Sean, Dick, or anyone else to tell them what they think.
And their not whiners.

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By: Cynthia

Cynthia — Mon, 30 Oct 2006 19:50:50 +0000

Cris: I just took a poll at polling point (I joined so they send me polls) that asked what state you were from then specifics about who you were voting for and stuff.

I did it Friday and I imagine it should be out sometime this week.

That one should be accurate.

In another poll there, you ranked your state's economy. Michigan was not only dead last but percentage wise way below everyone else.

http://www.pollingpoint.com/results_20060727-2.html

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By: Joshua

Joshua — Mon, 30 Oct 2006 17:12:17 +0000

Cris do you discriminate against everyone who doesnt think like you?

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By: Cris

Cris — Mon, 30 Oct 2006 16:52:28 +0000

Joshua, Thanks, but I can read Saul's blog as well as the next guy. I wonder what an actual, impartial poll would say?
The one you cite (see Pete's comment) is a morale booster for DeVos campaign workers and fans. I'm not among either of those groups, so I'll wait for a real poll, conducted by a professional poll organization.
I see by looking at their site they provide all sorts of services to campaigns...they're probably the people who auto-called me two or three times after each debate with faked-up "conversation" about how BAD Governor Granholm did.
I wonder how much they charge for inventing a positive poll for a candidate? We'll never know, as that's just between Dick and his checkbook.
Joshboy...you REALLY need to vet your sources before you start posting this stuff. Between Red Nancy the Commie propagandist and Roll Call "polls" you're looking a little silly.
Given the fact that DeVos is likely to spend a record amount of money, a LOT of it his own, I think we'll see a down-to-the-wire race.
Elections have been bought by zillionairs before, and it could happen here...I just hope MI voters can see thru the greenback fueled smoke screen.
Cynthia, I'll talk about your posts later...working now.

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By: Cynthia

Cynthia — Mon, 30 Oct 2006 16:30:33 +0000

Joshua:

Did you get any answers from DeVos? I am assuming you didn't since you did not post anything.

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By: Cynthia

Cynthia — Mon, 30 Oct 2006 16:03:39 +0000

Cris:

"As averse as I am to cut n paste (Joshua‚Äôs forte) I thought this was relevant. It comes from the Dept. of Labor & Economic Growth and is a summary of the first years accomplishments of the Michigan Opportunity Partnership, just ONE of the Jobs programs underway in our state."

It would have been nice had it been started sooner, but it does seem to be helping according to those numbers. My only question would be, if 112,000 people were placed, why is that not reflected in the UI (it should be noticeable that is quite a high number) and why in fact is the UI higher not lower this year?

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By: Cynthia

Cynthia — Mon, 30 Oct 2006 15:57:00 +0000

Cris:

"Can you give me somes insight into this incongruity? How does your personal experience lead you to put job training into the NEGATIVE column for Granholm?"

I mentioned my personal experience and maybe I should not have. I say that because I have not seen the UI figure getting better (but I have seen it getting worse) in the past 4 years, so I am going by that. You are quite correct that I don't know what my experience as far as re-training would have been with Granholm in office, but it does not seem to me from the UI numbers that it has changed much. The jobs have been there and there and the situation hasn't changed much in the last 10 years, that much is obvious.

My experience with Republicans (probably more from when I lived in NJ), is that they would rather give people a credit or something to go to community college and get certified in something knowing they will get more tax revenue in the end.

As far as Engler, it seems he was so corrupt I don't know that he would be a good example. I would think of more of a Joe Knollenberg as my idea of a good Conservative. Teddy Roosevelt, REAL conservatives, not corrupt politicians who just want to fill their pockets.

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By: Cynthia

Cynthia — Mon, 30 Oct 2006 15:49:19 +0000

Natasha:

I think that Devos talks all game and he doesnt do what he says hes gonna do ‚Ä¶.all he wants is to make him self look good .Devos is just gonna hurt the economy more"

I think all politicians do that! The vote all incumbents out movement has a point, just show them we want change, we want some action, period! Even though I think they have a good point, I don't think I can vote that way, I think I will definitely vote for Stabenow for example. I am not voting till election day.

I voted straight Dem last time mainly becuase I was so ticked about Iraq (but also the pandering to big business). I can pretty much guarantee I won't do that this time, but for DC, I am definitely going with the Dems.

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By: Cynthia

Cynthia — Mon, 30 Oct 2006 15:44:19 +0000

Aaron:

"I am an aviation maintenance major at WMU, I am currently conducting my senior project on running biodiesel in a turbine engine. Biodiesel can be made from virgin soybean oil which we can grow in michigan. And the most available resource, used trap grease from restaurants. IDEA: MASS produce it, create jobs, don‚Äôt rely on OPEC and government for gasoline, become more self-efficient, educate people how to make their own fuel, grow their own food, and stop being IGNORANT."

So everyone who has a different opinion that you do is ignorant? I am glad you know everything, now YOU can save the world! What you are working on is good, but you are being much too simplistic, it is just not as easy as you are making out to be. For one thing, how do you make fuels out of other things like corn or soybeans without fossil fuels? It would be nice, but can you do that? Where are you getting the energy from? Tell me you are not using any conventionally generated electric, or oil, or gas to make your fuel, then you might impress me.

One other question, if it is about oil, why aren't we taking any oil from Iraq except for what the troops in Iraq need?

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By: Pete

Pete — Mon, 30 Oct 2006 14:37:14 +0000

Fact Check for Joshua:
Voter Roll Call is an ELECTION PHONE CALLING FIRM. They call people to get out the vote and do other election related things. They are NOT a polling firm. Under their services they do not list polling:
http://www.voterrollcall.com/Services.htm

Trumpeting their poll positively STINKS of desperation. However, when money fails and the REAL pollsters agree that the candidate is sliding, it's time to pull out the lies, right?

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By: Joshua

Joshua — Mon, 30 Oct 2006 13:58:32 +0000

More cut and paste for Cris:

As I have said over and over again, beware of polls. This late in the game numbers will be jumping up and down as voters finalize how they are going to vote.

However, the poll is too good not to share. It shows DeVos and Granholm tied!!!

That‚Äôs‚Äô right, a recent survey shows the race for governor is tied at 47 for DeVos and 47 for Granholm. With 2 percent undecided and the balance voting for 3rd party candidates.

Survey completed by Voter Roll Call of 526 likely voters 10-26-06. The margin of error on the survey plus or minus 4.4 percent.

If the election for Governor were today, and you were standing in the voting booth right now, who would you vote for? Republican Dick DeVos? Democrat Jennifer Granholm? Green Party candidate Douglas Campbell? Libertarian Gregory Creswell? Or U.S. Taxpayers Party candidate Bhagwan Dashairya?

47% DeVos (R)
47% Granholm (D)
3% Campbell (G)
1% Creswell (L)
0% Dashairya (UST)
2% Undecided

Here is the source so you dont have to do any searching:
http://breakingnews.redstate.com/blogs/saul_anuzis/2006/oct/29/mi_morning_update_new_poll_devos_granholm_tied_michigan_republicans_have_momentum

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By: Cris

Cris — Sun, 29 Oct 2006 20:50:44 +0000

As averse as I am to cut n paste (Joshua's forte) I thought this was relevant. It comes from the Dept. of Labor & Economic Growth and is a summary of the first years accomplishments of the Michigan Opportunity Partnership, just ONE of the Jobs programs underway in our state.

112,000+ people placed into jobs through Michigan's Workforce System
32,000+ people enrolled in training
Employer Job Pledge Drive
¬ª 45,000+ jobs pledged; 31,000+ people placed into jobs
¬ª 8,600+ employers received additional help finding workers
¬ª 100+ job fairs & open houses with 1,400+ employers and
20,000+ participating
Four Regional Skill Alliances piloted seven accelerated training programs; trained/placed 271 people; 100% completion rate; 80% employment rate
$17 million for accelerated training of more than 1,200 individuals in health care (RNs LPNs, allied health professionals) to address health care shortages

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By: Cris

Cris — Sun, 29 Oct 2006 16:42:08 +0000

One more thing: Cynthia writes in post 316:
"When I was laid off due to lack of work in 2001, I was not given any options to increase my education and I would have jumped on them if I had been. I think they just figured I could get another job. Well, eventually I did, but here is the thing, I could be doing work at a higher level than I am, and so can lots of other people, but that doesn‚Äôt mean they have the money for school.
The italics are mine. Cynthia, may I respectfully point out that, in the year 2001, Michigan was in the 12th year of the conservative, pro-business Engler administration? Jennifer Granholm was not elected until November of 2002.
This simple fact makes me wonder a bit about your memory when you state in another post, # 283:
"Education needs to be a priority, but as you pointed out, we don‚Äôt know what DeVos would do. I do know that Republicans are usually good about the re-training thing so I assume there would be more support for that from a Republican, but I can‚Äôt know that for sure.
So, that one goes in the negative column for Jennifer for me."
I wonder what leads you to say that "Republicans are usually good about the re-training thing" when your own rather disappointing encounter with the State during a lay-off was during the third term of a Republican Governor. In an earlier post you express much disappointment and frustration with the state agencies tasked with helping the unemployed, as well, but I'm not going to bother reposting that. But this was all during Engler's administration.
Can you give me somes insight into this incongruity? How does your personal experience lead you to put job training into the NEGATIVE column for Granholm?

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