Well, our article about the Michigan Gubernatorial Debates became a HUGE hotbed for posts about the race between Democratic Gov. Jennifer Granholm and Republican challenger Dick DeVos. We received so many comments and views that we had to lock posting of new comments there and continue them here. Sorry about that, but with a week to go before the election, we had to make a move to protect the bottom line!
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110 Comments
Very interesting link to LiberalOrder, a conservative site.
I also found it interesting that they reference the Mackinac
Center, one of the most conservative think tanks in the country.
Imagine my surprise when, on clicking their link, it took me to a an article, posted in Jan of '04, where this rock-ribbed conservative
organization gave Granholm a firm pat on the back for her first year in office. Not what I would have expected, to be honest.
It sort of lets the air out of your arguement, Joshua, that Granholm hasn't done anything (cutting waste, etc.) since taking office. Certainly the boys at Mackinac were impressed enough to grade her above the average for Governors.
"The Granholm Administration: A Review of Year One
Michigan’s budget deficit dominated politics in Lansing this past year. Gov. Jennifer Granholm put much of her budget-balancing emphasis on cutting excessive spending and avoiding dramatic, broad-based increases in the most economically destructive taxes. It is primarily for her handling of this difficult situation that we at the Mackinac Center for Public Policy believe she has earned a letter grade of “B-minus” for her first year performance — above average as governors go, but with plenty of room for improvement.
Shes done alot since taking office, mostly complaining about republicans and blaming everyone else for her problems. You still havent answered my question, why do you Blame Bush for everything wrong with our country, yet give Granholm a pass for her lack luster effort? The budget is up, revenues are down, we have lost 85,000 jobs, you are soo right, she is doing a Great Job!!!! You seem to be a bit hipocritical if you ask me!
BUT IN 5 YEARS YOU GOING TO BE BLOWN AWAY
Another reason not to vote democrat, espscially if you or any of your family have served in the Armed Forces:
John Kerry tells College Students to get an education or they will end up in Iraq: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLuMWiQ6r2o
FLASH: McCain Calls On Kerry To Apologize
Tue Oct 31 2006 11:43:14 ET
Senator Kerry owes an apology to the many thousands of Americans serving in Iraq, who answered their country's call because they are patriots and not because of any deficiencies in their education. Americans from all backgrounds, well off and less fortunate, with high school diplomas and graduate degrees, take seriously their duty to our country, and risk their lives today to defend the rest of us in Iraq, Afghanistan, and elsewhere.
They all deserve our respect and deepest gratitude for their service. The suggestion that only the least educated Americans would agree to serve in the military and fight in Iraq, is an insult to every soldier serving in combat, and should deeply offend any American with an ounce of appreciation for what they suffer and risk so that the rest of us can sleep more comfortably at night. Without them, we wouldn't live in a country where people securely possess all their God-given rights, including the right to express insensitive, ill-considered and uninformed remarks.
END
If that comment, Joshboy, is aimed at me, I don't believe I've used the word Bush in any post here...not even the term "bush league", though I could have accurately applied that to your political judgement at almost any time.
I'll confess a bit of surprise that you haven't asked me why I "hate America", or has that phrase been retired along with "Stay the Course"?
For the REST of us, those interested in open and accountable government, the following should be of interest.
The Michigan Press Association, a non-partisan organization of Michigan newspapers, sent a short questionaire to both Granholm and DeVos asking them about FOIA (freedom of information act), Open meetings Act, etc. These laws ensure that government can't be carried on in secret. Think Dick Cheney's Energy Task Force.
All well and good...but DeVos REFUSED to answer these important questions. Not "didn't respond" but REFUSED to answer.
On one hand, I think that maybe he just didn't know what these laws are...but I think it's FAR more likely that he does know, and doesn't want the public to know his answer.
His refusal to answer alarmed my local newspaper ( a conservative paper in a highly, highly Republican area) enough cause them to publicly endorse Granholm for the reason stated above.
http://www.michiganpress.org/pdfs/governor.pdf
Read it for yourself. What is Dick hiding from?
I thought this board was for comments about the Governors race. Running out of ideas, Joshboy?
The other two comments, 3 & 4, just go to show stupidity is not limited by political affiliation.
Nice dodge of the question. What do Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity have to do with this election? You continue to claim that I am a influenced by them? And you still cant defend her record of broken promises (other than to point fingers at others). Have you read her "Blueprint for Michigan" that she ran on during the last election? So again, why do you give her a pass?? Try to focus and perhaps be specific instead of changing the subject.
Excuse me, Joshboy..I didn't bring up Kerry or post links...you did.
And Rush n Sean don't have anything to do with this election, but they have a lot to do with your shallow braying and parroting of the DeVos party line. I didn't bring them up, you did.
Part of your post # 75:
"I think you will love this! Do me a favor listen to a little Rush Limbaugh or Sean Hannity, I think there is still hope for you! Have a great day, see you at the Polls"
Now...tell me what you think about Dick's avoiding answers to the Michigan Press Association about the FOIA and OMA. Hmmmm? Why would he do that?
You keep dodging the question because you dont have an answer! The kerry post was for everyones benefit, another demonstration of how lucky we are he isnt in office. This election is a referrendum on Granholms lack of job performance and all of her broken promises, promises you cannot and will not defend because you know you cant. And by the way, where is your buisness at, I would love to come support a Michigan buisness.
Hey Ace, care to finish or start that for us?
It's from the 2006 State of the State Address. As I recall, she was talking about the 21st Century Jobs Fund and it went like this:
"I know I said this speech was to the people, but let me just pause for a moment to thank you, the Legislature, for putting politics aside to put people first by approving this critical part of the plan. We are wasting no time in putting this powerful tool to work to create jobs.
This month, we held 13 sessions across the state, explaining this fund to standing room only crowds of excited entrepreneurs and business people eager to grow their businesses.
In a few months, we will begin making prudent investments in the diverse companies that will grow jobs in Michigan.
And by this time next year, we’ll see new businesses doing just that. In five years, you’re going to be blown away by the strength and diversity of Michigan’s transformed economy."
http://www.michigan.gov/gov/0,.....--,00.html
Amazing what a snip of a conversation out of context can do, eh Ace? For example, if I say "Decent people think that Dick DeVos and the Republicans are dirty snakes" it's a lot more damaging and inflammatory than if I use the whole quote:
"I would hope that decent people think Dick DeVos and the Republicans are dirty snakes when they run ads like this on television that distort the truth."
It's not an isolated case:
http://andylevin.org/media.php?id=79
Lying has become politics as usual, war has become an energy policy, torture has become an American value.
Got a link for that one, Joshua?
No peter, just to the torture comment: the very fact that you are still alive and 5 years after 911 we havent been attacked. You can write your alqueda bill of rights and try to give them the same protections and try to give them constitutional rights, but the people are not buying it. You are a shining example of politics as usual.
Actually Peter I found a link for that one:
http://www.goarmy.com/flindex.jsp
You can go find out the truth about the war for yourself, live and in person, who knows, you may meet a terrorist face to face (hopefully they dont torture you, or behead you like many other americans).
So just to clarify: you have nothing to refute my arguments except to say that if the USA weren't torturing people I'd be dead.
Points of order:
1. Just Pete. Peter is my dad.
2. Al Quaeda probably wouldn't have a Bill of Rights. The USA does. Or did.
3. I find it really, really, really hard to believe that John Kerry would have done a worse job of managing our country than George W. Bush where the "W" stands for WORST PRESIDENT EVER.
4. "Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power." -Ben Franklin
Screw politics. And screw this parrot act. Our state and country are messed up in large part because the party in power of our state and nation (starts with an "R" ends with a tax break for the wealthy) has thrown decency and fiscal sanity and the rule of law down the crapper.
I hear nothing but blame and half-truths from you and from your candidate and from your "Republican" party. (though by God Eisenhower would vomit at the thought of being identified with this republican party) Neither you nor Dick DeVos nor George W. Bush can give us a plan. You have none. All you have are attacks.
I know that moments after I type this you will swoop down and link to some dittohead post that "proves" that our nation and way of life aren't in dire straits or toss of a one-liner that prevents you from looking in the mirror and being utterly ashamed of the man you have become.
It doesn't matter, because I know what Truth is and it's not something that you can just make up. I know what Freedom is and it doesn't need torture to defend it. I know what Peace is and it sure as hell doesn't start a war somewhere else and murder thousands of innocents to protect itself.
Freedom isnt free peety boy, you wouldnt have the right to spew your garbage if someone didnt sacrifice their life for this country. What half truths have you heard???? Who have we tortured??? Show me someone?? We have not been attacked in 5 years because people with the balls to protect this country are in Power, you wouold just roll over and take it. You have shown your true colors pete, you have no problem exercizing your freedom of speech but you will have no part in defending it. Just like your boy John Kerry who trashes our soldiers as uneducated! What americans have we spied on??? Show me one! You need a reality check pal! Your civil rights dont mean crap if you are dead!
As far as refuting your arguments concerning Granholm, she lied four years ago (Blueprint for Michigan), and she is doing it again. You are just too blind to see it.
My God you are so blind.
My grandfather gave his life for our country. In my opinion there has not been a war in my lifetime that I would call honorable and worthy of service.
You don't protect a nation by slaughtering people or charging off on the slimmest pretext to discharge hundreds of millions of dollars worth of weaponry. You protect a nation by working to create a saner, safer world. The reason we are constantly at war is because we won't fight for peace. That, and the fact that people are so willing to assume that murdering their fellow man under the direction of their leader somehow doesn't conflict with "Thou shalt not kill".
Spare me the claptrap about how you're killing people to defend me. I didn't ask you to. In fact, I have objected strenuously. You're not preserving Democracy when you take up a gun and help to tumble the world further into chaos.
I know why George Bush and you keep threatening me and others with death. Because you seem to believe that war is something other than murder and killing.
Why did they delete most of the comments?
They aren't deleted Cynthia. The thread got too long and was really chewing up the bandwidth so we had to archive those with the original post (link is up above) and let folks continue the discussion here.
I tell you though, I wonder about the value of discussion like this. I think alt.fightaboutideology is over on Usenet or something.
Joshua, your John Kerry comment is beyond ignorant. Yes, Kerry's comments were wrong and inappropriate. However you tying his comments to the entire Democratic Party is the same as someone claiming that nobody should vote Republican because Foley likes underage boys. These are two grown men responsible for their own actions and these actions can't be stretched into generalizations about entire political parties.
AS for the Governor's race, why do you think Bush sent his wife to campaign for DeVos instead of making an appearance himself? Bush knows that a majority of Michiganders blame him for the state of the economy. Like it or not, MI took a hit under the trade agreements that Bush passed and DeVos supported, namely granting China permanent normal trade relation status and getting them into the WTO. These agreements without realistic and enforceable oversight facilitated the shipping of MI manufacturing and auto industry jobs overseas. As I have said before not Dick DeVos or Superman could have stopped the underlying economic factors that were already set in motion when Granholm took office. Governor Granholm worked tirelessly to address the root cause and diversify the state's economy and IMO she deserves another term.
So..Joshboy...having a plan and not delivering it in it's entirety is LYING?
An interesting principle. I wonder how the same standards apply to Iraq, The War on Terror, Social Security Reform, Immigration Reform,
preventing North Korea and Iran from developing nukes...oh, man..I could go on and on. So what?
Your arguements are pretty thin when you have to go back to a plan..goals..that were set years ago, to have something to whine about.
Take on today, if you can.
And tell me why Dick Devos refuses to answer questions posed by the Michigan Press Association about the Open Meetings Act and the Freedom of Information Act. What does he intend on hiding if he's elected?
The "blown away" phrase has quite a different meaning when it's presented in context and not distorted by the DeVos smear machine.
Have anything to say about that, Joshboy?
Pete and Joshboy...I wish you both would stick closer to the Gubernatorial race. Let the rest go...please.
All of this John Kerry nonsense needs to stop. Obivously Bush is doing something right because the MAJORITY of the United States of America support him and his actions in Iraq. Obivously if the MAJORITY of the United States didn't want to go to to war and didn't want to HELP other countries then John Kerry would be president.
Cris, you are the idiot here, Dick Devos is not George Bush, (as much as you may want to compare the two). So as I have stated earlier, you hold George Bush responsible for everything you think is wron with America but you are to hipocritical to hold Granholm to the same standard, instead you make excuses. That is why your party has been out of power for soo long. You have no original ideas, and half of your party cannot even agree with the other half.
As for Brad, you have no ideal what is happening over in Iraq or Afghanistan, you are soo warped by the medias false perception of what is happening that your head is burried way up your, well you know what. To say that there hasnt been a honerable war in our generation is the stupidest comment you have made to date, this has shown you for who you really are.
We where attacked on September 11th, in 1998 at the US embassys in Africa, in 1993 at the WTC, in 2000 the USS Cole, and in 1993 in Somalia. We are at war because of radicals who want to kill everyone of us because of what we stand for and the Liberty that we hold so dear. You cannot talk or reaszon to these people, diplomacy and holding up a peace sign wont work. This is the most just and honorable war that America has been in Since World War 2, and if you cant see that you need to take you simple mineded self to france. You discust me!
Brave americans are fighting and ding every day because unlike you and the rest of the cook left, they believe in what they are doing, not becasue they are uneducated. This is an all volunteer Military, no one is being drafted, and unlike you they know what they are fighting for and that is why they continue to reenlist and continue to sacrifice. If you took one minuite and stood in theur shoes, maybe you wouldnt be such an ignorant fool to what is happening to this country.
And thank you Andy, you are right, the majority of Americans do support our troops andthe War on terror, and thank God for that, unlike Brad, most Americans know what is at stake.
Brad, I invite you to come tomy unit and state your case there, you might learn something about this country, instead of watching CNN, why dont you come and talk to the people who have been there and know the truth.
Excuse me Brad, that last comment was for Pete,
I invite Pete to come and spew that crap to real Americans who dont hide behind the constitution, instead they choose to defend it. If you cant stand behind our soldiers, stand in front of them!
Cris, you continue to harp on this one question as if the election depends on Devos not answering one question? Why dont you ask him??
http://www.devosforgovernor.com/Contact/
As for the war on Terror, Immigration reform, Social Unsecurity reform, North Korea developing Nukes, and Iran; we have philosophical differences on these issue and the Majorty of Americans side with me, (refer to the 2004 Presidential election). And let me remind you that George Bush didnt run on a platform of blame everyone else and pretend I am not responsible for what is happening on my watch (like Granholm). Unlike your girl the President takes responsability for his actions and doesnt duck and cover everytime he is challenged on his policies. You live to use the word thin, the only thing I see that is thin here is Granholms hold on her job.
Andy:
We will see how much Americans love Bush on election day. I predict the Republicans will loose their majority. Have you looked at Bushs' approval numbers recently? They have been very bad for quite some time now.
I think Americans are a little ticked off about Iraq!
Nobody I know that used to vote Republican supports Bush anymore, including me!
Joshua:
You don't have to support an unnecessary war (Iraq) to support the soldiers. I can't stand it when people say you are against our troops if you think we should not have gone into Iraq. Everybody I know (close enough to know their opinion) thinks we should not have invaded Iraq but since we did now we have to finish what we started and be supportive of our troops.
Being supportive does not mean you have to agree with the premise for the war..."when you see the mushroom cloud it will be too late!". Nice drama, no truth. I remember Bush saying that like it was yesterday, and it definitely was misleading, no matter how you slice it.
Cris:
Pete and Joshboy…I wish you both would stick closer to the Gubernatorial race. Let the rest go…please
Mind your own buisness, unless you want to join the discussion!
"As for the war on Terror, Immigration reform, Social Unsecurity reform, North Korea developing Nukes, and Iran; we have philosophical differences on these issue and the Majorty of Americans side with me, (refer to the 2004 Presidential election)."
If the Dems had a better candidate in 04 Bush might not have won, and they can't keep scaring people into voting Republican.
I thought this was about the Gubernatorial race?
It has turned into something a whole lot larger when you have comments like this:
"In my opinion there has not been a war in my lifetime that I would call honorable and worthy of service"
As Far as this being about a Gubernatorial debate, the candidates have turned this into a national debate when they bring in major political advocates for their causes. Hell, Granholm has an add that turns Devoses face into Bush and vice versa.
Cynthia:
Being supportive does not mean you have to agree with the premise for the war…”when you see the mushroom cloud it will be too late!”. Nice drama, no truth. I remember Bush saying that like it was yesterday, and it definitely was misleading, no matter how you slice it.
Here is your mushroom cloud (The irrefutable truth):
http://www.september11news.com/
We cant afford to wait and pretend it wont happen again, as for Iraq, 12 resolutions and Sadaam shooting at our American pilots over the nofly zone every day was enough for me to take him out, as you may recall, we went into vietnam after a few gunboats fired on our navy ships. Despite the WMD, Saddam tried to assasinate an American president, he used WMD on the Kurds and on Iranin soldiers and he was a threat to us. Despite the fact that almost every Democrat supported his overthrow before the WMD didnt show up.
Saying that John Kerry would ever be disrespectful of our troops is like saying George Bush has the secret for success in Iraq ... both are totally absurd.
eah, like when he said our troops where terrorizing women and children in the dark of night! Or when he compared our troops in vietnam to Ghengis Kahn, saying that they cut off heads and ears and body parts of the vietnamese. Get your facts strait Anne before you put your foot in your mouth, like John Kerry!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLuMWiQ6r2o
And if he didnt mean what he said, why did he refuse to appologize, not for his statement but that it came out wrong, he refused to even appologize for misspeaking, not that he did. He said exactly what he meant, he says it was direted at Bush???? Well Bush is in Washington, not Iraq.
So...Joshboy...I take your major effort to change the subject to mean that you're simply out of ideas as to why DeVos should be elected Governor.
This is neither surprising or disappointing to me, as what passes for thought in your posts was pretty bankrupt and hollow in the first place.
What's with you and name calling? Does it make you feel better? Hint: it really makes you look desperate, immature and silly.
My point about bringing up Iraq, social security, immigration reform, etc. was to point out that Bush ran on these issues, pledging to enact his idea of solutions for these problems. Sadly, but not surpisingly, none of these complex issues has been dealt with or resolved to anyone's satisfaction. If we apply the same standard you wish to use to judge Granholm, you'd have to then say that Bush Lied about these issues. Is that true?
If a syncophant like yourself can't get answers from DeVos, if the Michigan Press Association can't get answers from him, why would you suggest that I email him? I'm afraid all I'd get would be Spam trying to recruit me to sell soap.
Get back to the Governors race, if you can, and take your RNC talking points to another board.
Cynthia, did you look at the poll site I posted? Quite interesting to see so many different ones and see them graphed over a long period of time. Let me know when your internet poll company releases results.
Crissy, I am going to stay right here and continue to show how much of a hipocrit you are, if you dont like it, go somewhere else. You refuse to hold her to the same standards and I have made no excuses for Bush but you have spun circles on this site for Granholm and tried to change the subject at every chance you get. Lets see what diversions you can come up with now? And in six days, you are going to be blown away!
Josh:
No, sorry, there were NO WMD's, there WERE NO WMD's, THERE WERE NO WMD's!
End of story and the majority of the American people agree with ME.
Anne:
I like Kerry but I think that whole statement was very bad to include in his speech, and I think it was definitely a mistake on his part.
It would not be so bad if he had said if you can't afford to go to college (which is a common plight) you might end up in Iraq, but to say if you don't get good grades you might end up in Iraq is pretty much a put down to soldiers in Iraq. I read how he meant to say it and that was no better.
I think he had very bad judgment on this one.
Its easy to be a Monday morning quarterback Cynthia, but as I have stated, almost the entire congress, the American people, and the world thought he did prior to the war (Fact). And even after we found almost no WMD (there where 500 mustard filled bombs found), the American people reelected George W Bush! This is not the end of the story and it wont be for quite a while now, atleast until the war is over.
And what ever happened to:
"I thought this was about the Gubernatorial race? "
Seems your true colors are showing as well. Still bitter about 2000?
Joshua, the punch line was suposed to be "Just ask President Bush", but he forgot to say that.
I agree, it was not funny, and his timing was pretty bad too!
What were they thinking?
That aside, I don't think this will save the Republicans, it was just a temporary distraction. It would only be an issue IMHO if he runs for President again.
Bush really has no room to criticize, he mispeaks all the time and provides more and more fodder for the Bushism trackers.
Joshua:
You were the one still posting about Kerry so don't accuse me.
The intelligence stunk, and you ought to be damn sure before going to war.
Do I want a man in the white house who beleives God tells him what to do and bases his decision (which probably includes the one to go to war) on such logic? NO!
No I am not bitter, I just think Bush is about the worst President we have ever had, hands down!
Hell, I would rather vote for Homer Simpson!
Bush won because they played the terror card and because Kerry was not a likeable enough candidate, not because he did a good job.
Bushs' approval rating is 38%, he is NOT well liked, what alternate reality do you live in anyway?
The problem is Kerry didnt mispeak, and he stated that during his press confrence, so he is wide open to criticisim not only from the President, but from John Mccain, the American Legion, and every soldier serving this great country. John Kerry refused to appologize, so if he mispoke, you would think he would have the common courtesy to clarify what he said. And bush never attacks the soldiers!!!!!!!!!!!
First of all unless you are in the whitehouse, you have no right to speculate on how the President makes decisions, what are you Psychic??? Secondly you can come up with whatever excuses you want as to why Bush is in office but the fact remains he has been elected twice, so you are in the minority on this one. As for the Presidents approval rating, just look at Clintons while he was playing with his interns in the whithouse! so save your polls for someone who cares.
Joshua:
Here are the facts, any reasonable person can be pretty sure that:
Granholm is going to win.
The Democrats will get their majority (Kerry's blunder is not enough to make the American people forget the reality they have to live with every day of their lives).
Will they do better than the Republicans? I sure as heck hope so, but there is no way I am voting for any Republican to go to DC and most people I know feel the same way I do.
They have done ENOUGH damage.
I can already be arrested if I sm suspected as a terrorist and not even be told why, and you think I am going to let them keep going?
The American people will not lie down for this, and if the Democrats don't do better they will be out too, maybe 3rd party candidates will finally have their day.
Anyway, the Republicans blew it, face the truth Josh!
We don't even need to discuss the Gubernatorial race anymore, Granholm has it. It would take a miracle for DeVos to win at this point.
I always knew John Kerry was not leadership material, this once again proves it! I am so PROUD of my vote for Bush!!!! Just as I will be proud of my vote AGAINST Granholm. Talking a good game (again) doesn't get the job done.
Joshua:
"I'm driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan. And I did, and then God would tell me, George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq ... . And I did".
Do you want to tell me President Bush did not say that?
Do you want more quotes?
If "God told him" go to to Afghanistan, it is such a leap to think he might have thought the same about Iraq?
Cynthia, dont dilute yourself, the votes are not counted and Bush is still in ofice for two more years, so even if the Democrats take the house, by the time the next presedential election comes around, Kerry and the rest of them will have run their mouths soo much, that no one will put another Democrat in office. We still have six days to go so try not to get too excited yet! And this Gubernatorial race isnt over yet, just ask Jenny what happened in 2002, she had a 14 point lead and ended up winning by 4 points because Democrats didnt show up to vote.
As for your undecided rants in previous posts, you have shown your true colors and you could have saved alot of people alot of time trying to help you when you already had you mind made up.
Judy and Joshua, good luck to you!
DeVos does not stand a chance and I have made my decision, I am voting for Granholm.
She is starting to make some progress, I will vote for her to have the chance to finish what she started.
Have a good day!
Just becasue someone believes in God and by the way has been very open about it in all of his political life, is no reason to discriminate against them. But this is an irrelevant discussion, he is the President and you cant change that, not with all the hate inside of you!
Cynthia, you and Jenny will make a great couple, you both lie and pretend to be something you are not. I will see you at the polls, Nothing is over until November 8th!!!!!!
Joshua:
I made no secret of the fact I did not like Bush from my first post in here. I know Bush has two more years and I would like him to be able to do as little damage as possible.
I was leaning towards DeVos not Granholm when I first came in here.
You did not provide the answers I asked for that I could go and check on myself. The other side did and that helped me make my choice.
You don't win people over by attacking them.
I thank everyone for their patience and help.
Oh, and Joshua, I always vote, I will defintely show up.
"Just becasue someone believes in God and by the way has been very open about it in all of his political life, is no reason to discriminate against them."
First of all I am not hateful, and I have not said anything hateful, I have only stated facts. I do not want someebody in charge who makes decisions based on what they think any God is telling them. What if that little voice in their head is not God? Close to 70% of our population does not agree with Bush about Iraq, I guess none of us can hear God?
Sure Joshua, whatever you say!
I am not here to win you over, you need to make up your own mind! If you need this website to find someone to win you over than that speaks volumes about you. I choose to get my information from better sources. Have a Great day! No one is buying you lies though!
"If you need this website to find someone to win you over than that speaks volumes about you."
Huh? What volumes does it speak about a person to like our web site and what's wrong with it and (if it's not too many questions) why come here if you don't like it?
Just curious - thanks.
What does Iraq and God have to do with eachother?? You are reaching!!!!!!!!! And furthermore, people are tired of war now, the polls where alot different in 2003 when we went in so stop stating your polls, they are irrelivent. And to state that the president is hearing voices in his head becasue he is a man of faith shows how simple minded you are. You need to think before you speak John Ke I mean Cynthia.
By the way check out the photo at Drudgereport.com from the soldiers!!! Its great!!!!!!
I love it, but you need to make up your mind with more than just information from an opinion based website, you should do a little more research into the candidates than you can find here, you should listen to what they have to say and search other sources for information. To look at one website and base your entire decision on the conversation and opinions of others is just selling yourself short. There are multiple sources of information out there concerning the candidates and their positions and you should have all of the information before you make a decision!
Joshua said, "We still have six days to go so try not to get too excited yet! And this Gubernatorial race isnt over yet, just ask Jenny what happened in 2002, she had a 14 point lead and ended up winning by 4 points because Democrats didnt show up to vote."
In this case, Joshua has a point. If Granholm's supporters (Republicans and Democrats alike) don't vote then devos will win.
I will be voting next Tuesday after I'm done volunteering to read at my daughter's grade school. See you at the polls!
- Beach
OK, glad you're not running us down. I'd ask what an opinion based website is but I'm not sure I want to know the answer.
One great way to get information about the candidates and issues is Publius.org (see our article.
You can also use the box in the top right to do a keyword search for "politics
PS: Did you see the live mock election webcast we are doing tomorrow?
Well said, Beach, I hope we have the best turn out in the states history! Get out there and exercise your right to vote! Let the people decide!
Another great source of information is the candidates websites and by calling them directly with your questions!
Yeah really. So much of a president the democrats wanted to elect. Who the heck says that! It was a good thing that Kerry didn't get elected because he could've been worse than Clinton. The United States as the superpower cannot afford to be pushed around by Iraq. This is why we are in the war. We were not just going to sit there during 9/11 and not defend ourselves. We have to send a messege to the countries that think they are better than us and tell them that we are the best country because of our government. We didn't let England push us around in the 1700's after a while. We need to continue what we're doing Iraq re-build their government.
Interesting that even the Detroit News, who endorsed DeVos, is showing Granholm with a 10 point lead at 52% to 42% as of 10/30.
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb...../610310447
Also, the lastest Zogby poll from yesterday shows almost identical results.
http://online.wsj.com/public/r.....mp;hasAd=1
I know, I know, Joshua about Granholm's first election and about Engler, but because something can happen doesn't mean that it will. The point is the trend is increasingly favoring Granholm and the GOTV effort seems to be in full swing. So if everyone votes next Tuesday, DeVos is toast.
If, is the key word Brad, and your party doesnt have a great track record of getting out the vote, so dont count your chickens just yet, we still have 6 more days of Democrats sticking their feet in their mouths before this one is over.
I think you've made the right decision, Cynthia.
Granholm is not perfect, and I have been disappointed in some aspects of her first term, but I don't see DeVos as a real alternative. She's 4 years into a turnaround program and, though the startup was frustratingly slow, she has a good plan in hand that is already showing results. It's not a 4 year deal...more likely a decade or more because the problems are huge and deeply rooted...but to toss her out and start over would only set Michigan back farther. I think she's the real deal and can accomplish a lot in her second term.
I'll be a lot more critical if, in 4 years, things aren't headed strongly in a positive direction. But I'm convinced she is on the right track and has her priorities straight. I'm very hopeful.
That being said, I'm still worried about the election, despite what the polls say. It's a fact that the Republican organization is better at getting out the vote, so it ain't over till it's over.
Poor Joshboy...having a serious meltdown and showing the nasty, bitter core of his personality. Snarling at you, and now the website as well. Pathetic.
By the way, Josh...call me names if you like, but learn to spell them correctly: H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-T-E
Actually, you probably need to look it up, because I don't think you actually know what the word means. Here's a handy link to help you make up for what you obviously missed in school:
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/hypocrisy
While you're there, look up a word that I think describes you pretty well: TROGLODYTE I think definition "b." sums you up pretty well. Enjoy!
Study puts Michigan at No. 3 in U.S. manufacturing
Five local firms ranked among best in state
http://lsj.com/apps/pbcs.dll/a...../611020365
"If you need this website to find someone to win you over than that speaks volumes about you."
If the only way you can communicate is by your lame attempts at insults that speaks volumes about you!
Joshua:
Showing your true colors now I see!
Yuck!
Joshua:
"I love it, but you need to make up your mind with more than just information from an opinion based website, you should do a little more research into the candidates than you can find here"
And I have stated (repeatedly) that I do exactly that. Your candidate is going to loose, you know it, and all you can do is hurl insults at others.
That speaks volumes about your character.
Andy:
"We were not just going to sit there during 9/11 and not defend ourselves."
Defend ourselves against who? Iraq DID NOT attack us on 9/11.
Cris:
"I’ll be a lot more critical if, in 4 years, things aren’t headed strongly in a positive direction. But I’m convinced she is on the right track and has her priorities straight. I’m very hopeful."
From what I can see getting past the gloss and mud slinging going on, I have to agree. I have done all I can to look into this (contrary to what others think I don't just come to a site like this, I do as much research as I can before I vote).
I will tell you one of the top reasons I decided to vote for Granholm. We need the healthcare issue addressed and it will not be if DeVos is elected. It cannot wait, it has to be taken care of.
Also, I do like that I can verify she did get some (real) training started and there is some progress being made.
If the Dems don't do better, in 4 years I think we will be voting 3rd party en masse.
I am a Conservative, but I am not a stupid one. All you have to do is look back to the Pullman era, the Republicans now are just like that, give us your money, be our slaves and keep your mouth shut.
Joshua:
I saw the drudge thing from the soldiers, and it was pretty funny.
However, if you think I am going to flush my future down the toilet because JFK said something stupid, you really need a reality check. In the end, what gets people to go and vote and what influences who they vote for is the quality of their lives, and people are not going to forget the Iraq war, the healthcare crisis, the fact they know how much less they are making no matter how much a lower UI is touted, etc. They are just not going to forget that stuff because JFK said another stupid thing. Not going to happen.
Cynthia, you can live in a dream world where nothing bad happens if you only appease those who hate you, unfortunatly that is not the case. Iraq did not attack us on 911, but we cannot let threats mount against us anymore. Thank God For George Bush, I pray for him and this country every day and pray that we continue to have great leaders that have foresight and are not stuck in an imaginary world, where the US is to blame for everything that is wrong with it. The people will decide this election, so hold your applause until the 8th.
Oh and dont forget its not just unemployment, but the stock market continues to break records, we have more money in our pockets thanks to the tax cuts, we have not been attacked again since 911, we are building a fence on our southern border, and Soldiers are reenlisting in record numbers because they believe in what they are fightng for and that speaks volumes. Especially to all of you Mondya morning Quarterbacks!
Well in doing my part to turn that 'if' into a sure thing, I urge all Granholm supporters to sign up for the elction day team to do your part. You can volunteer using this link,
http://www.granholmforgov.com/....._fightback
or call 517-485-5100. Let's get the vote out!
oops wrong address Brad, Here try this one:
http://www.devosforgovernor.com/Volunteer/#Email
And make sure you get your yard signs!!!
Joshua, good point, everyone get your Granholm yard signs and bumper stickers. This is what it's all about.
Have you seen this interesting story yet? Dick lying about his glory days . . . no way. It looks like his soap selling skills got the best of him.
DeVos' prep football career scrutinized by ex-coach
"A former Forest Hills Central High School football coach says a scene Republican gubernatorial candidate Dick DeVos vividly describes in a recent edition of the school newspaper never took place."
http://www.mlive.com/news/grpr.....amp;coll=6
I realize this is disputed, but where there is smoke there is fire. We have seen Dick's record of leadership; leaving his 8 year term on the State Board of Education after only 2 years (while missing the most meetings of any member). And who could forget the Board of Control at Grand Valley State University where as an appointee of Governor Engler, Dick missed 16 of 27 meetings and quit before his term expired. That is quite a record of leadership.
Thanks Brad, if you need me I will be at the Devos campaign headquarters volunteering to make phone calls and drive people to the polls! Good Luck
Love Dick's fib about his pep talk from the ol' coach...lol
If one needs to look for who's lying, one only has to look for who is using this invented history for personal gain. And it AIN'T the coach.
Nice call, Coach!
My god, how far back do you people have to dig for dirt??? An old man doesnt recall a talk with one of his players and all of a sudden Devos is lying?? I cant remember all the insults Crissy has thrown at me since we started writing on this site. I wonder how many years he coached and how many players he talked too. This is pathetic, but I have to look at the source and who continues to play this up like it means anything.
Here you go, Granholm lies:
http://www.prolifeblogs.com/ar.....anho_2.php
I realize that this is a blog, but as my good friend Brad pointed out, where there is smoke, there is fire!
Joshua:
"the US is to blame for everything that is wrong with it."
I never said that, don't put words in my mouth.
Brad:
That is one of the things that turned me off to DeVos. Reading about him, it was like, he was on this committee, but he couldn't make it to the meetings, but he was chair of that, but he couldn't make it to the meetings.
That said to me, this guy is either in the habit of overextending his time, or he doesn't know how to manage it.
Either way, it is just as ineffective.
I never said you did, but the party you are supporting does, and does it every cance it gets. That was my point! Is that all you have to say about my statement?? Must have been right again! Go me!!
Here you go Joshua (since you want to post links to blogs here are some good ones for you):
http://devosisadick.blogspot.c.....again.html
http://devosisadick.blogspot.c.....html#links
http://devosisadick.blogspot.c.....drens.html
http://devosisadick.blogspot.c.....html#links
http://devosisadick.blogspot.c.....html#links
"Is that all you have to say about my statement?? Must have been right again! Go me!!:
What can you say to somebody that prefers to live in an alternate reality?
Of course I don't agree with one word that silly post said!
Joshua:
"I never said you did, but the party you are supporting does".
Would you stop already? I have said I am an Independent and am not loyal to any party. If you had a decent candidate, then maybe I would vote for him!
You give people THAT for a choice and then blame the people?
I am beginning to think Republican is another word for denial.
Joshua:
The cloning thing does not thrill me, but it nowhere near as scary as what I have found out about DeVos.
Cute, I think Independant is your code word for Liberal (if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and looks like a duck). I have never denied anything, you just refuse to face the facts. Granholm lied to get elected the first time and is doing it again and you have fallen for it. I have done nothing but state the facts! And you have done nothing but show your true colors, every post you write makes it more and more evident, despite what you say!
How about partial birth abortion?? Pulling out a 6 month old baby out of the womb legs first and killing it, yeah, thats the candidate for me, NOT! I have just shown you more of her lies and you continue to believe her, and the best you and your buddies can come up with is that Devos didnt answer a question to a news paper and that his 69 year old coach doesnt remember a cnversation. Pretty thin if you ask me (sorry to use your catch phrase Crissy).
Because I doubted your "source" I went and did my own check.
Care to explain this Joshua?
http://www.michigan.gov/gov/0,.....--,00.html
Let me quote:
"The bills would also increase penalties for anyone violating the state ban on human cloning."
So, do the people on that blog lie like that a lot?
Cynthia:
Not to mention your anti-God comments reek of the far left, just becasue you dont believe in a higher power doesnt give you the right to descriminate against those who do!
" I do not want someebody in charge who makes decisions based on what they think any God is telling them. What if that little voice in their head is not God? "
So why are you voting for Granholm, she says her faith plays a major role in her life and decision making?? Sounds a bit hypocritical to me!!!!
"How about partial birth abortion?? Pulling out a 6 month old baby out of the womb legs first and killing it, yeah, thats the candidate for me, NOT!"
I don't think she is pro partial birth so much as she is pro women having a choice.
I don't like partial birth abortion and I would like to see it outlawed, but again, DeVos is still much scarier!
I want a Governor that does not have a record as a quitter that I can depend on to do the job!
Joshua:
I am not talking about faith-based decisions, I am talking about somebody saying "I went to war because God told me to", big difference there, HUGE difference!
So you are selective when it comes to God and how people allow him to influence their decisions?? How convienant!
Joshua:
I tend to think it is not a good practice to make decisions on any "voice you hear in your head". It does not really matter if you think it is God, Buddah, Muhammad, Satan, does it?
Who the voice IS (or who you THINK it is) is not the point), and really, religion has nothing to do with it.
The point is that decisions (especially really important ones) should be based on facts not voices you hear in your head.
I think that Cynthia, Pete, Crissy, and Brad are all very Liberal in you beliefs and ideas, as long as you can make enough excuses for Granholm to fit her into your idea of what a candidate should be than she just right. Fortunatly there are plenty of us out here that are not as diluted as you are. We can see through the lies, Michigan doesnt need another politician, we need a change! On November 8th we will have one regardless of your polls, Just ask John Kerry, if you can find him!
If I recall, the entire congress made the same decision, as well as the American people, so I think there was alot more to the decision than a voice in his head.
Joshua, you claim we are diluted, yet you refuse to accept Dick's record, or lack thereof. It must be difficult for you to be so righteous and correct all of the time.
There you go again with your logical arguments tying Kerry to Granholm as if they share policies and are one in the same. As I stated before it is a different story between Bush and DeVos where there are actually substantive ties between DeVos support of Bush’s trade policies which have severely hurt MI. Again, why do you think Laura and not George is showing up to campaign for DeVos? He knows Michiganders blame him for the state of the economy.
Joshua feel free to come to the Put MI First rally this Saturday at Wayne State with President Clinton. I know you won’t want to miss it.
Ok Brad, let me help you out cause I know you are a little slow in this discussion: Granholm Stumped (that is campaigned for Kerry in 2004), she addressed the Democratic national convention in 2004, John Kerry has been in Michigan stumping for Granholm. Sounds like a pretty cuddly relationship to me!
As for the Rally, is Bill bringing Monica with him??
Joshua, You crack me up!!!
Sorry to disappoint, but only President Clinton will be in attendance.
I am well aware that Governor Granholm spoke at the '04 convention and supported Kerry's candidacy. It's rather common for Governors to support the presidential candidate of their party. I am also aware that Kerry has been to MI.
You fail to see the difference and I will reciprocate the help you gave to me. First, George W. is President and that means he has a much larger influence over policy than say a Senator from MA. Under Bush, as I have said before, China was granted PNTR and admitted to the WTO with the strong support of Bush and DeVos. Second, these policies opened the floodgates of outsourcing and moving manufacturing jobs abroad. Compounded with the internal problems of the auto industry, MI took quite a hit. These economic factors were in motion long before Granholm took office. Also, Engler did leave a huge budget deficit. So when faced with these obstacles, yes it is necessary to point the blame where it is due.
In addition, did DeVos, being moral and religious man that he is, was willing to overlook the facts as documented by Amnesty International;
http://web.amnesty.org/report2005/chn-summary-eng
that Catholics were being detained and persecuted and that women were forced to have abortions and be sterilized due to government sterilization policies. I find that to be interesting.
I have better things to do than argue with you, considering you are obviously voting for DeVos. So, best of luck.
Brad, make sure you thank Clinton for NAFTA for me! What he did for Michigan should not be overlooked. Also, with such a bleak picture that you point out Granholm inherited when she took office, why did she run a campaigned that promised to turn things around? Either she is just plain stupid or she was playing politics, As much as I would like to think she is stupid, I am pretty sure she was lying! As for Senator Kerry, he was your candidate for President, so I think he has more influence than you are giving him credit for, dont try to downplay his importance in this discussion as he has been crapping all over our troops since Vietnam. I am sure you can see he has the nations atention right now! Maybe he can come back and stup for Granholm again, I would definatly make it to that rally!
I almost feel guilty for finding amusement in the ramblings of a clueless, pathetic fool. But not quite. You are endlessly amusing, Joshboy.
Do you actually think that Dick and Bets consider you to be anything but a stain on the sole of their custom handmade shoes? Remember, you're probably one of the folks that Bets says make too much money for the good of Michigan.
Cynthia: are you wondering why you ever talked to this bozo?
Interesting and tragic post about China, Brad.
I wonder how Dick and Dubya are going to deal with this human rights tragedy.
I'd expect Dick to Deny (hey, it's worked for him in the past, and plus, their his business partners), and Dubya doesn't have enough armed forces to even deal with Iraq, so I guess he'll pretend nothing is happening.
The Christian Right won't take up the cause either...it would create all kinds of problems for DeVos and other right wing supporters.
The huge and widespread human rights abuses just won't exist in Dick and Dubya land...it's too inconvenient.
Joshboy...THIS is a situation where the word Hypocrite (and I'm glad to see my spelling lesson helped you out) actually DOES apply.
Crissy, I am glad to see that you are here, I thought you may have gone into hiding with your rich Boyfriend John Kerry, but maybe he is mad at you for writing that awful joke for him about uneducated soldiers???? I am sure that his Fortune didnt stop you from voting for him in the last election?? Hypocrit!! (There is that word again) It is describes you soo well! Well, I have to get back to my dumb friends in the Military, You have a great day Crissy!!!!! (Keap Blamin Bush for everythin and comparin him to Dik Deevos)
"Cynthia: are you wondering why you ever talked to this bozo?"
No, but it definitely got old very quickly!
Still, Joshua helped me, only not in the way that he wanted. He helped me remember why I don't want to vote for the majority of Republicans running for office. Their fake moral superiority and thinking they are SO much more worthy than those sinning Democrats is humorous, give me a break! My experience in life has been the ones who preach the most and act the most holier than thou are usually the biggest "sinners".
The Republican party of today, IMHO, do not even deserve to be called Conservatives. Poor Teddy Roosevelt must be rolling over in his grave!
You can call them neo-Conservatives, or just greedy bastards, but IMHO their agenda is global domination, they could care less about the quality of life (or lack therof) of the common man. I am sure they would bring back sweatshops with child labor here in the US if they could. They sure love to do business with other countries who have not outlawed such things, lots of money to be made! They talk free trade but what they really mean is slavery (why pay a man a fair salary when you can get him to work for a bowl of rice?). At least I can believe some of the Dems want fair trade.
One would hope poor Joshua is as superior as he pretends to be and not just a common man lest one day he has to accept that the ones he supports so loyally don't give a rap about him! Then again, maybe Joshua is doing some business in China!
DeVos should run for office someplace else...like China!
Joshua, thanks for showing your true colors, you have been more helpful than you know! You have reminded me of exactly what DeVos and others like him really are.
I want change, but change that will be beneficial for all, not change that will just be beneficial for the Overlords!
Cris:
If you really want to laugh, check out DeVos resume in the "would you hire this guy?" link I posted.
No, I would NOT hire this guy!
I am glad I helped you, I am not going to appologize for my beliefs and my decision to be a Republican. As far as the cheap shots, they are a febile attempt at attacking me because we think differently and shows me just what kind of person you really are, I know who I am and am proud of it, I dont need confirmation from people I dont even know to make my decision on who to vote for or what I believe in, these are things I have settled a long time ago. If you think that makes me Superior, you may be right.
"I am glad I helped you, I am not going to appologize for my beliefs and my decision to be a Republican. As far as the cheap shots, they are a febile attempt at attacking me because we think differently and shows me just what kind of person you really are, I know who I am and am proud of it, I dont need confirmation from people I dont even know to make my decision on who to vote for or what I believe in, these are things I have settled a long time ago. If you think that makes me Superior, you may be right."
This just proves what YOU really are Joshua! You have attacked everybody on this board when they don't agree with you, yet you think you can claim the moral high ground...hypocrite!
LOL about the superior Josh, you are a legend in your own mind (and that is about all!).
If you want to vote for the greedy overlords, have at it. You guys have to stick together, right?
Oh, and BTW, I do not think people who are rigid and inflexible are superior by any stretch of the imagination, but natural selection takes care of that problem over time.
Cute Cynthia, as if the restw of you libs havent been slinging mud at me! (Its not easy being the only one who is right!). And you are no Angel yourself with your spiteful comments, I wouldnt get to you as much as I do if I wasnt right. Save your hate for the polls! Have a great day! We will see who shows up here on November 8th!
Oh, and Josh, just so you know, I don't think anybody is actually superior to anybody else, they just think they are. True Christians, though, are supposedly humble, did you forget your bible says not to esteem yourself too highly, or not to think you are above anybody else?
You just prove by your own words what a hypocrite you actually are.
To be honest, I can't stand elitism. I find it morally repugnant, and I also find it reprehensible that the same people who are right-to-lifers on the one hand condemn people or even whole groups of people when they think they are superior in any way, genetically, morally, or otherwise, as if they had more of a right to exist to begin with or were entitled to better things by virtue of their supposed superiority.
Since you are Christian Josh, I suggest you get busy taking care of your own faults before you try fixing everyobdy else's, after all, that is what Jesus said. I don't have to quote scriputre to you, do I?
No, you need to take the 2X4 out of your eye before you try to take the splinter out of mine. as for the Superior comment, you made that false accusation, I simply ran with it, But I am a child of the most high, so I do feel pretty special. I dont think I am Superior, I just refuse to bend my morals for a politician or to fit into a group of people. Your opinion or anyone elses for that matter doesnt matter to me, I know who I am and I am proud if what I stand for. I will not vote for a party that is going to leave my brothers and sisters hanging in Iraq with no funding, and who say we are not against the troops just the war. What do you think that does to the morale of our troops fighting in Iraq? Your decision to support a party that hates the military is sad. But enough arguing with you, we can agree to disagree. Hopefully after this election we can get back to being Americans and put the partisan crap behind us.
OK, closing round 2 of Michigan Political Fight Club. On to round 3: 2006 Michigan Elections, Voting & Politics: Granholm vs. DeVos, Michigan vs. Itself.
If you're wondering "why do they keep doing that?", each comment on a page adds file size which ads cost to us when the pages are refreshed.