(was: Granholm vs. DeVos: 2006 Michigan Governor Debates)
It only took 4 days to go over 100 comments in thread #3 on Tuesday's election between Granholm, DeVos and many more candidates. That's probably partly a measure of how bad the weather has been, but I am guessing it is also a measure of how sharply divided the Michigan electorate is. Usually, in hard times people come together to work for a solution. That doesn't seem to be happening in Michigan today. I wonder why our state is so divided and also if you agree with this and why you think it is or isn't.
I have gathered up a couple of pieces I read about the upcoming election that I enjoyed that may aid in the discussion or in making an informed decision on Tuesday. Feel encouraged to add your own in the comments (which I figured we should start fresh for the weekend). I was pondering a rule like "no being mean" but I'm not sure how I'd enforce it. If anyone has ideas about that, post a comment!
Publius Voter Information Center - It's pronounced "poo-blee-us" and pardon me if I'm over-linking to it, but it is such a useful web site that I feel obligated to give everyone a chance to explore it.
Partisanship, from William G. Milliken: Michigan’s Passionate Moderate by Dave Dempsey - This is the best thing I read this election cycle. "Right now there is widespread feeling that too many politicians are pandering to special interests and are self-serving. The net effect of that is disengagement on the part of citizens. That’s borne out by the fact that voter turnout is appallingly low."
2006 Michigan Mock Election - If the above was the best thing I read, attending this mock election was the coolest thing I did. Full disclosure: I am on the school board at Leland School. Still, seeing 1000 students from area schools listening to student and candidate speeches and seeing candidates talking with them and actually listening to their concerns was inspiring and helped cut through a ton of negative ad-induced cynicism. The rally will be re-broadcast on Monday, November 6, 2006 from Absolute Michigan & MichiganLiveEvents.com. (time TBA)
Little keeping deceptive political ads from Michigan airwaves - Speaking of ad-induced cynicism, this AP article by David Eggert says that little stands in in the way of lying in campaign commercials. Both Republicans and Democrats are complaining but as Michigan Association of Broadcasters president Karole White says "The whole system is set up so anybody can say anything about anyone." He adds that "Once it's said, it's said." This means that spurious charges such as those dropped on Andy Levin or Sen. Tom George can be made with little worry that they will bite back.
OTHER VOICES | GRANHOLM OR DEVOS?: Michigan newspapers' endorsements - The Detroit Free Press has a nice summary of endorsements from other papers. They did admit 2 papers from their list. One, the Detroit Free Press (Granholm) is understandable as they're assuming regular readers would know that. The other, the Detroit News (DeVos) is a bit less so. Stranger still is the fact that the only place I could still FIND that endorsement was WOOD-TV. You'd think that the Detroit News would have left it online.
There you go, have a good weekend, have fun and try not to hurt each other.
48 Comments
The comments from earlier are right here.
Hmm, I agree that Michigan is pretty seriously divided, but I wonder if we're really more divided than any other state?
I walked the bridge this year, for the first time in 12 years, and saw something that shocked me. Protesters. At the Bridge Walk. They were anti-war activists who told us that they were called, among many ugly and derogatory things that I'll not list here, communists and traitors.
Later, as we were standing in line to eat breakfast, I commented to my family that I thought namecalling was a pretty unenlightened and disappointing thing to do. At that point, the man in front of me, who was standing with his wife and very young son, turned to me and said, "Tough s**t!" and continued with, "Right here! Right now!" and a little bit of everyone's favorite f-word.
I guess my point in telling this story is that were the situation reversed, he would probably have said the same thing. I think most adults can agree that namecalling is a pretty stupid thing to do, but in this heightened political climate, we all seem reduced to 5 year-olds bickering on the playground.
Ultimately, we all want the same things. We want to be safe, happy, comfortable. What's so alarming is that we don't seem to be able to recognize that in each other. Republicans seem to think that Democrats are out wantonly killing babies and having terrorist fundraisers. Conversely, Democrats seem to think that all Republicans are out to legislate morality and convert the world to Christianity. We assume the worst about each other and never attempt to find common ground.
Until we do, I think we're in trouble.
Oh yeah, I don't think there's anything wrong with a "be nice" rule. Plenty of blogs delete comments that are vulgar or disrespectful.
It looks like I almost squashed the commentary, Jenny. I agree with you that we're approaching a 5-year-old "did not / did so" level of public discourse. I read a piece by Lou Dobbs called The Middle Class Needs to Fight Back Now. In it, he argues that:
Unfortunatly these tactics work, that is why we are subjected to relentless ad's trashing one another. I wish that with the candidates statement at the end of the ads there was another statement of who was funding these candidates and these ads. I also think that meetings and transactions between lobbyist and politicians needs to be completly transparent and posted for the citizens to see, this would go a long way to stop corruption in Washington.
I think you have a good point. money and politics aren't a good match
Farlane:
I love Lou Dobbs, I wish HE would run for President! Somebody who actually cares about the common man.
I can't wait to go and vote tomorrow. I will be back after Jenny wins just to see who shows up here!
And BTW, Joshua, I do believe in God, I just think it would have been better not to send our troops into harms way for NO reason and watch thousands of them killed, and for what? Iraq is a quagmire. I also heard there is a HUGE problem with recruiters lying, even telling potential recruits things like the war in Iraq is over and they won't have to go. With that kind of junk going on, don't expect to impress me with your record numbers of recruits. How many are poor kids who can't afford college and can't find a job? BTW, before you say it, that is not a putdown, whether or not they can afford college has no bearing on their intelligence level. Not everyone can get scholarships. I don't think they are joining for the same reasons you try to say they are, got any proof? Here are some links to back up what I said:
http://www.wlwt.com/news/4508233/detail.html
http://breakingnews.redstate.c.....rat_effort
I agree about money and politics.
Cynthia, your first post is from last year and since then recruiting remains at an all time high, secondly you are pointing out specific incidents with a few recruiters, you can find coruption anywhere and the military is not exempt, ie Abu Garaib prison. But to say your HEARD that there is a huge problem with recruiters is obserd. Do you know any recruiters? Have you spent any time working with recruiters? Talking to prospecive soldiers? I have and I have seen nothing like what you are pointing out. And furthermore this only applies to new recruits, Reenlistment remains at an all time high, that means the soldiers that have been to Iraq once, twice, ans some three times, are reenlisting becasue they believe in what we are doing! You cannot refute this and you cannot make the claim that these soldiers are being duped into reenlisting.
As far as your last comment:
I don’t think they are joining for the same reasons you try to say they are, got any proof?
Its called patriotism, and Americans have been doing this for generations. Thank God for men and women who choose the road less traveled and put their lives on the line so you can have the freedoms you have. Why dont you go down to your local recruiters office and find out the truth, instead of just hearing things.
Oh and as for your Jenny comment, here are a few FACTS you may need to consider before you start celebrating:
http://us.f607.mail.yahoo.com/.....;box=Inbox
I cant wait to hear what you come up with next!
Sorry, I had a problem with that last link so here is what it said:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Dj vu." Upfront I admit that I don't like starting a memo with a French phrase but it applies.
It's 2006 but we've been here before.
Michigan has a long and undisputed history of proving late polls completely wrong and false. Winning Michigan campaigns have always been for the stout of heart. That's why we always fight so hard.
There are 2 things that we need to help with victory on Tuesday, November 7:
Public polls showing a wide lead for Granholm, lulling the opposition into a lackluster effort; and
An energized turnout push.
Fortunately both are occurring.
Today the Detroit Free Press will publish a poll by an out-of-state polling firm showing a 10+ lead for Granholm (both instate public polling firms show the race for Governor at +6 and +7).
Today's Free Press poll is identical to the polling released in the infamous 1990 race.
And our voter contact in our volunteer Get-Out-The-Vote phase is hitting a record-breaking pace.
In 2 days, Michigan is going to witness a regime change with the election of Dick DeVos as our next Governor. Here's why D4G will win:
November 4, 2006 Detroit News
Message. Message is always key to victory (isn't everything vital?). While Governor Granholm has done a solid job of attacking the messenger as the message of her campaign, the power of change in this campaign environment trumps the message of `Stay the Course' for the status quo. In the past 2 decades, in over 100 races for Governor, no incumbent has survived re-election with Wrong Track numbers as high as Michigan's.
History of polling. Adjusted to this year's calendar, let's look at the reliability of Michigan's public polling in the past:
Thursday, November 2 Posthumus -11 (2002) finished -4
Thursday, November 2 Engler -12 (1990) yet won by less than 1
Friday, November 3 Stabenow -12 (2000) yet won by 1
Sunday, November 5 Engler -17 (1990) yet won by less than 1
Monday, November 6 Abraham -13 (1994) yet won by +9
True as most clichs are, polling is not a reliable predictor of who is going to win. And public polling is the worst. Democrat strategist James Carville once infamously quipped regarding media polls, "you're like children with matches, you shouldn't play with them, you all don't know what you're doing and someone's gonna get hurt."
The Battle for Detroit. Most pundits won't chance a prediction that D4G will outperform historical trends in the City of Detroit. Many analysts predict a higher turnout in the City of Detroit due to Proposal 06-02. While turnout remains a mystery, the percentage of D4G support will outpace historic trends. In the most recent contest against Jennifer Granholm, Dick Posthumus received 5% of the vote in the City of Detroit.
Turnout Kings. In recent years, the Michigan GOP has become known as turnout kings nationally. Simply put, we get it done. Base intensity is at an all time high for an off year in Michigan and our volunteers are making more voter contacts this past week than at the same time in the presidential year of 2004. Yesterday (Saturday), our volunteers made over 200,000 volunteer voter contacts.
The reality is the media and all of the professional pundits matter little to the outcome. The vote belongs to the people whom will go to the polls in 48 hours and decide the future of our state.
It's up to us to fight hard and finish this battle as victors.
Dick DeVos For Governor
P.O. Box 22216 | Lansing, MI 48909 p: 517-679-0191 | f: 517-703-0929 | e: info@devosforgovernor.com
Privacy Policy | Unsubscribe | copyright©2006, Dick DeVos for Governor
Paid for by Dick DeVos for Governor
As for the war and the reasons that we went in, I urge you to read this:
http://mensnewsdaily.com/2006/.....omic-bomb/
The new york times reported that Saddams papers that where posted on an American web site showed that he was only a year or so away from having a nuclear weapon.
Also we have found mustard and serin filled bombs:
http://www.breitbart.com/news/.....4imol.html
I think that should help settle your argument as to why we went into Iraq, Not to mention a terrible dictator who killed thousands of his own people with chemical weapons and fired upon our pilots almost daily as the patrolled the no fly zone. 12 UN resolutions that where thrown back in our faces, and the majority of the congress voting to send our troops to war. Including my personal favorite Jon Carry
More good news Cynthia:
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.....9/61106007
I will definatly see you here on Wednesday!!!!
Joshua:
Stop painting me as a non-patriotic American. Just because I don't agree with the war does not mean I don't appreciate our troops. I tell tham so too, I have sent cards, I have told them so in person.
I hope you are right and the recruiters are not lying. All I can tell you is most people I know (quite a few) who have joined the military did it because of education (not just now, I know people who fought in Viet Nam, Korea, and the Gulf war). I almost enlisted (surprise!) when I was younger but I decided against it for personal reasons. I was going to do it mainly because I could not afford collge. This is nothing new, people do it all the time.
I do have a friend that has been to Iraq 3 times (God bless him) but he says it keeps getting worse over there and he isn't going back a fourth time. This is not a young man either, he is in his early 40's, and he fought in the Gulf war too. I trust anything he tells me is the truth, and I just told you what he said.
Joshua:
I think the voters will turn out on both sides.
I don't need to hear DeVos campaign pep talks, lol.
Joshua:
Yes, I have an old neighbor of mine who was going to entlist in the Marines but he didn't becauase his he knew they were promising him pie in the sky based on the experiences of friends of his who had warned him not to believe the promises. So, bassed on realistic expectations, he decided not to do it. I am not saying they all do it (I sure hope not) but the point is none of them should.
For you to blow off the newspaper articles and just say they are lying does not impress me.
Joshua: LOL, listen to your own advice and don't celebrate prematurely.
I will be here on Wednesday no matter who wins, but I think it will be Granholm.
I think the idea that DeVos might take Detroit is laughable. I don't care if they are "Turnout Kings".
Andy, have you read Thom Hartmann's "The War on the Middle Class"? That Lou Dobbs piece is in a similar vein, but you should check it out simply because Thom Hartmann is a cool guy.
I am not blowing off your articles, but I am trying to put them into perspective for you, consider the size of the military and how many recruiters there are across the nation. You are pointing out a few incidents that are unfortunate but it does not mean that every recruiter practices the same reprehensable tactics to entice recruits. But my point was that reenlistment is at an all time high, just ask your friend who is going on his fourth tour to Iraq (and please thank him for me). Also ask him if he thinks the media is slanted in its coverage, you never seem to hear all the good stuff that is going on over there.
" don’t need to hear DeVos campaign pep talks"
These are facts:
History of polling. Adjusted to this year’s calendar, let’s look at the reliability of Michigan’s public polling in the past:
Thursday, November 2 Posthumus -11 (2002) finished -4
Thursday, November 2 Engler -12 (1990) yet won by less than 1
Friday, November 3 Stabenow -12 (2000) yet won by 1
Sunday, November 5 Engler -17 (1990) yet won by less than 1
Monday, November 6 Abraham -13 (1994) yet won by +9
And if you notice it is not just Republicans on this list. Good luck tomorrow, we will definatly know on Wednesday!!! But you know Devos is going to win!!
Jenny, he may not take Detroit but there is more to Michigan than Detroit. Not to mention that Granholm didnt support Detroits Mayor in his last election so I dont expect turnout to be all that impressive in Detroit.
Joshua:
What I said is my friend said he will not go back a fouth time as it has become much too dangerous (and he is no coward). He says it is out of control there. He almost lost his life a few times already.
Believe me, I do thank him.
Three tours is alot but the fact still remains that the troops believe in what they are doing and are reenlisting in record numbers and I see veterans returning to service after being out becasue they believe in what we are doing.
Regardless of what your opinion of why we went to war, we are at war and we cannot just cut and run, nor can we stay the course, we need a new plan to win and bring our troops home as heros! I know this administration has made mistakes and needs to keep the politics out of war and let our troops finish what they started. But I cannot and will not vote for those who plan to cut funding for our troops and plan to leave them haniging out to dry.
The political snarling and barking that goes on is nothing new...we just have a lot more places to hear it repeated over and over to us.
Out and out polarization...demonization of opposing views..probably IS on the increase. Both sides use it, to one degree or another, but the Right has a fairly unique forum, talk radio, that gives them an unrestricted voice and allows some of the worst demagoguery a large audience with virtually no opposing views. This is a very popular medium, widespread and with avid listeners.
When I read Jen's story about being at the Bridge walk and her encounter with Mr. Foul-Mouthed Family Values, the first thing I thought of was "there's an avid talk radio guy". This idiot doesn't see the difference between the rants of a radio entertainer and real ife spent around real people. Kind of like scary movie fans who get spooked by creaks and funny noises in their own house...they've lost a crucial ability to separate fact from entertainment.
If one cares (don't bother) to look back at some of Joshboys posts on the earlier message board, you'll find a whole lot of talk radio dialogue.."you libs, this...you Democrats, that...", lots of name calling, and a favorite talk show trick: behaving badly, then acting outraged and "disappointed" while accusing the opposition of the very transgression you've just committed.
Both sides are guilty of a version of this.
I won't sleep until I know the outcome tomorrow night. It's a fact that Republicans just are better at getting their people to the polls. I wish it wasn't so, believe me.
I don't have too much faith in the metro Detroit turnout, and will be very pleasantly surprised if the turnout is high. Maybe the prop 2 issue will drive people to the polls like Gay marriage, etc. brings out the Republican conservative vote. I hope so, but I have little reason or experience to believe it will be the case.
I don't need clip n paste to say, with all sincerity, that the war in Iraq is a huge, expensive and tragically deadly MESS. Joshua: Look up HUBRIS. It applys here, in spades.
After 4 years, the capital of the country has electric power for less than 6 hours a day, neither oil nor fresh water is flowing in a significant way, and thousands are dying in an out-and-out civil war, and many of the 300,000 or so Iraqis we have trained are AWOL in one fashion or another. Think ARVN in the Viet Nam war.
I wasn't going to do a clip/paste, but a very recent survey by that wildly partisan organization WorldPublicOpinion (affiliated with the U of Maryland's School of Public Policy) has some VERY disturbing results, especially when you compare them to US policy and plans as articulated by Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld.
http://www.worldpublicopinion......mp;lb=brme
Read it and weep. This is how we are "greeted as liberators".
I'll be glad when the campaigning is over...sick of the TV garbage, the auto phone calls and push polls.
Joshua,
You don't expect turnout to be impressive in Detroit? Yeah, I'm sure nobody in Detroit is worried about that silly Proposal 2 thing.
They arnt, they look at the polls and think everything is locked up so why bother. Look at the Primaries, the lowest turn out for either party in recent memory, what makes you think this election will be any different than the last? Both Gubernatorial candidates are against Prop 2. Cris is right, Democrats are not as good as Rupublicans at turn out, tomorrow will be no different, especially if there is alot of rain. Granholm said it herself, "democrats dont like to get wet". All we can do now is wait and see what happens. Good luck to all and I cant wait to start debating the 08 Presidential elections!!! I like Gingrich myself!!
Joshua:
"nor can we stay the course"
"You don’t expect turnout to be impressive in Detroit? Yeah, I’m sure nobody in Detroit is worried about that silly Proposal 2 thing"
If they care, they had better, because lots of people (like me for example) will be at the polls voting for it.
Joshua:
“nor can we stay the course”
I meant to say, I am glad to hear you admit that!
Joshua:
Good luck to you too! I will be out in the rain voting.
Somebody has to care about the poor mourning doves.
As for 2, I hope it passes, I really do!
I am still undecided about 5, but I am voting yes for everything else except 3.
Farlane:
I read that article about Milliken, great stuff. I loved Whitman, I lived in NJ when she was Governor and she did a great job. I voted for her!
We need more people like that, but they seem scarce these days.
I too am voting yes on 2, I am voting yes on all but 5, I dont believe the hype and think it is more about the teachers than the students and classrooms. Good luck and try to stay dry, I will have to vote tonight aftr work so hopefully the rain will clear out.
Joshua:
I think I will vote against 5 too, but I am still mulling it over.
What do you have against mourning doves? They are not the other white meat! They don't have much meat so they would just be target practice. It is one thing to hunt for food, but that is just cruel!
I also have to vote after work.
I would love to be able to cast a vote for Bill Milliken today, Cynthia.
I checked out Thom Hartmann, Jenny. Any writer who asks "What would Jefferson do?" gets a plus in my book. The excerpt from that book was interesting (click link, then click "Excerpt"),  saying minimum wage has fallen 17% (and middle class incomes by 10%) since the start of the Reagan presidency, and that 80% of lower and middle class homeowners spend HALF of their income on housing. For my money, those aren't numbers we should take pride in.
Another interesting fact re: unemployment rates, if you're unemployed over 18 months, in addition to losing unemployment benefits, you are removed from the unemployment stats. I was not aware of that.
Its bigger than the doves, I personally would never hunt a dove, but I cannot let the special interest groups that are against all hunting have their way with this proposal. I dont know many people who would hunt them and my wife is going to kill me for voting yes on 3 but I feel it is important, especially in a world full of anti-gun, anti-hunting, anti-sportsmen groups that have some pretty powerful lobbyists.
I don't think that affirmative action or a ban on some form of it belongs in the Constitution. I'll vote to let it stand until I'm convinced that there is no racism or sexism in Michigan. In other words: a long time. Adjustments can and are being made as situations and conditions change, but not by Constitutional amendment. Overkill.
Doves, on the other hand, are cute, sound nice, love my back yard, and are delicous when lightly grilled with salt, pepper and a quick rubdown of Worchestershire sauce. They are hunted in most states and are NOT target practice. I haven't hunted in 26 years, by the way.
Cows, sheep and chickens and deer are cute, too. What's the difference, other than not many of us have chickens or cows in our yard. Here in the North, we all have deer in the yard.
What's your take on 5, Farlane? I can't see voting for it.
The vast and growing gap between the middle class and the richest citizens is a big problem and will be a key issue in the future.
An article in last Sunday's Free Press by Kevin G. Hall spells this disparity out pretty clearly and in an even handed way. Worth a look.
I hope everyone gets out and votes today, especially supporters of our Governor and Senator.
Cris, I think Prop 5 is not the best idea. However, a worse idea is letting our legislators continue to treat school funding in the same cavalier manner that they have for the last several years. The cost of running a school is going up far, far faster than the funding for schools, and while Prop 5 may force a budget crisis, it won't be the middle of the night, end of June crisis that the legislature has seen fit to foist on schools in recent years.
That Kevin Hall article, Income gap between America's families is growing, study finds was pretty interesting.
I hink we can come up with a better idea than Prop 5, we need to push our legislature regardless of who wins to address the needs of our children, we need to hold those elected accountable to us, not just at the polls but during their terms. I have made a point to contact each and every representative, Senator, Governor, and President when something that matters to me needs attention, I encourage all Americans to do the same. I am going to vote no on 5, we can find a better way to deal with this issue while trying to keep our budget on track.
For what my two cents is worth I disagree with the idea of ballot initiaives all together. Why should I have to do the legislature's job? It's sad to say but as politicians they're probably more informed than I about the consequences of manipulating public funds. That's why I voted no on them all.
I completly disagree with Seth, this gives the power to the people and lets us make the decision, instead of partisan bikering and watered down legislation these proposals are strait foreward and to the point. We need to make these important decisions and I support the process of ballot initiatives.
Good news from the Detroit News:
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb...../611070432
When Michigans unrelentingly conservative daily rolls over and concedes the election, I feel I can relax. Ahhhh...
It looks like Jenny crushed the 40 million dollar man. Great news!
That being said, the gist of the Detroit News editorial posted above is on the money in many ways. Dear Jenny: Now the hard work begins.
I have high hopes, but also high expectations, not just of the re-elected Governor but also and equally the Legislature. I hope ALL of them can get past "campaign mode" and get on with the business of getting my beloved state back on track. Let's all hope so.
Finally...Joshboy..even an incredible 40 million+ dollars couldn't convince Michigans voters that your boy was up to the job. I think DeVos will end up spending almost 10 dollars a vote (maybe more)...not just for HIS votes, but for every vote. Amazing. It's a good thing he's better at selling soap in China than he is at selling himself to his fellow Michiganders.
Another good bit of news is that Debbie Stabenow has cleaned Sheriff Bouchard's clock. He should have talked about "that dating thing" with his daughter, I guess.
A good night to be a Democrat, even though I'm not one.
checkmate. One more term for Granholm.
DeVos concedes... how about you Joshua??? I really hope you were kidding when you said you would move to Texas if Granholm wins. If not... happy trails.
Joshua:
I am not going to gloat or say I told you so, but yipee!
We will finally have some change now.
Now we just have to bite nails about the Senate, but what an election.
I am really dissapointed about the Mourning doves, but oh well. I hope that we can put the partisanship behind us and move foreward as the Governor said last night, I truly do hope that we can improve Michigan and our Nation as a whole. I hope that all of the speech is more than just rhetoric and that we can all work together. So Congradulations to Governor Granholm and to Senator Stabenew. I think it is good that the house and the senate are split and I want to see them work together for Michigan. I dont regret how I voted and would vote the same way again, but I do not hold any hard feelings whatsoever! Lets get to work, Get rid of the SBT and bring jobs back to Michigan and train those who need training to fill the jobs that are here. Thanks to everyone who has takent the time to debate the issues on this site and even though I felt alone most of the time I really enjoyed the discussions we had. See you back here for the 08 elections. I really like Newt Gingrich, but think Rudy Giulliani would make a Great President and could bridge the gap between the parties!
Very upbeat and we should all want to work together - too bad many of the politicians in both camps are so negative about the other.
As for Newt Gingrich - I have been in GA for almost twenty years after living my first 40 in BEAUTIFUL MICHIGAN. Had Newt been in Michigan you would be short many state and federal parks, and there has never been a beautiful site that he hasn't wanted to build a house on - with federal funds - AND THAT'S THE TRUTH!
What about Rudy?
Oh great, another term with little miss moleface. What a lying piece of scum we have for a governor, and whats worse is that michigan VOTED for her! how embarresing, other states are probably laughing at us right now. Michigan is down the tube. Moles and all.
OK, I have put together (more or less) the statewide results. I'm locking comments here and continuing discussion of the election here.
I don't understand the mole comment though. Seems just plain mean, Sarah.